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 THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD

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The_Dark_Artist
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri May 10, 2013 11:32 pm

I'm not doubting your honesty BUT if you can't actually prove the history... you may have trouble selling them as EP's. If Tom won't authenticate them, then they may as well be production figures. Just my 2 cents...
I'm going to edit this... If you can do some more research on the lady you mentioned and the relationship with the former Kenner Employee, by talking to her son. You may have a case. But you have to do that leg work.
Did you get the Red Cape Bib authenticated?
Did you get the first shot Leia blaster authenticated?
COA's would help. You seemed to be confused on which Leia blaster was actually a first shot on your other thread. These things are important to know...
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri May 10, 2013 11:42 pm

The_Dark_Artist wrote:
I'm not doubting your honesty BUT if you can't actually prove the history... you may have trouble selling them as EP's. If Tom won't authenticate them, then they may as well be production figures. Just my 2 cents...
I appreciate your true honesty. But what am I missing to complete the history.... I bought the items from an estate sale. I have the receipt of the auction that I won with pictures of the items from the sale. I had the auctioneer email the previous owner and she sent me an email with the name of the Kenner Employee that she said she got the item from, with a complete story. That lady is now deceased, but they we old college roommates. We live about an hour outside of Cincinnati.


Last edited by BornTheYearOf on Fri May 10, 2013 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri May 10, 2013 11:47 pm

But do you have COA's from Tom about the Red Bib, first shot Leia blaster? These things will only help you prove your figures are EP's.
You wrote this on your Leia blaster thread and it only confuses me because it seems you don't know which blaster is considered a first shot...
"I just wanted to let everyone know that the one blaster was actually a first shot blaster. At least that is what was told to me by CIB. I assume it was the one with the hole in it but I am not positive."

I'm only trying to help you here...
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri May 10, 2013 11:50 pm

The_Dark_Artist wrote:
If you can do some more research on the lady you mentioned and the relationship with the former Kenner Employee, by talking to her son. You may have a case. But you have to do that leg work.
The lady that had the relationship is still alive, The former Kenner Employee is the one that is deceased.
The_Dark_Artist wrote:
Did you get the Red Cape Bib authenticated?
Yes and Tom Derby made me an offer that I could not turn down.
The_Dark_Artist wrote:
Did you get the first shot Leia blaster authenticated?
Yes and Tom Derby made me an offer that I could not turn down.
The_Dark_Artist wrote:
You seemed to be confused on which Leia blaster was actually a first shot on your other thread. These things are important to know...
You are correct because Tom wanted both of them. I was trying to give back information to the forum as I got it.


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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri May 10, 2013 11:54 pm

The_Dark_Artist wrote:
I'm only trying to help you here...
I know and I honestly appreciate the help.
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 12:05 am

So you no longer have the Red Bib and you no longer have the first shot Leia blaster because Tom bought them from you? Correct me if I screwed up any of this info? I just want to be accurate. I am anal about details. But Tom still would not write you proper COA's for what you think are EP's???? WTF???? This makes no sense.
I have to walk away at this point...
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 12:23 am

The_Dark_Artist wrote:
So you no longer have the Red Bib and you no longer have the first shot Leia blaster because Tom bought them from you? Correct me if I screwed up any of this info? I just want to be accurate. I am anal about details. But Tom still would not write you proper COA's for what you think are EP's???? WTF???? This makes no sense.
I have to walk away at this point...
You are correct I have neither, He also bought both 2 EP early bird stands, a first hot ISP6 and a couple of other blasters that were all authenticated. I do not think the lady marked on the two figures but again how do you prove it? She had specifically mentioned something special about Jabba the Hutt but he said that it looked production. I was just trying to figure out if there was any way to prove an EP. Also wanted to see if someone thought there was something special about ol Jabba. Thanks again for all the help.
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 12:31 am

I'm having a real hard time buying any of this.
If Tom bought them (all those prototypes you mentioned), he'd surely buy the EP's too or AT LEAST write up COA's/authenticate them appropriately for you. I have a COA for an EP from Tom. Seriously, why would he not give this to you if he just bought all kinds of rare prototypes from the same estate sale?
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 1:06 am

Trying to be nice with this reply. I may be wrong... and I'll own up to that, BUT I still question why he (Tom Derby) would not write up COA's for your EP's if you sold him all those rare, Prototype figures/pieces from the same find/estate sale?
This is why I question what you are asking. You sold Tom first shot figures/pieces and a Red Bib but you don't understand how to recognize an EP AND never got COA's for them...
I would love an explanation. Again, I am ALL about provenance.
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 8:22 am

The_Dark_Artist wrote:
You sold Tom first shot figures/pieces and a Red Bib but you don't understand how to recognize an EP AND never got COA's for them...
I would love an explanation. Again, I am ALL about provenance.
-Steve
I will answer this by saying, Before two months ago.... I did not know about a red Caped Bib Fortuna. I did not know about a DT luke. I did not know about EP or first shots. Once I won the auction, I tried to look the Bib and everyone online had a brown coat. So then I found that there were prototypes made that had the red cape, but is so rare that it was most likely fake. I first sent to AFA the Luke and Bib. They both were there for about two months. I was asked to sent other items from the same sale to CIB. I did and the others were said to be what they were. I personally do not know how to tell the difference and he said that again, if I was to sell them to mention all this but did not offer up any COA of the sort. Thanks again Steve.
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 9:30 am

To all,

No disrescpect, but BornTheYearOf's story had some elements in it, which could be regarded unlikely. So I understand Steve's questions for some proof.

We thought the best thing to do here was to contact Tom Derby to verify the story.


Tom just mailed and we are pleased that the story is truthfull.


Tom authenticated a red-caped Bib Fortuna, and a few first shots (a first shot Bespin blaster, first shot ISP-6, and 2 first shot Star Wars display stands) that BornTheYearOf was able to locate.

However he was not able to authenticate the Luke with a numbered foot. Tom needs very strong providence when it comes to EPs, as these are basically production items. Such strong providence was lacking in this case.


Thank you BornTheYearOf for speaking the truth,

Steve for asking critical questions,

And both for keeping it civil.


And off course, thank you Tom for helping us, much appreciated! Very Happy



Let's just move on with this great thread. cheers





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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 10:17 am

I am very pleased to read that. As I said before, I was critical with my questions because I believe provenance is everything.
Congrats to BornTheYearOf! I think your estate sale paid off HUGE!
Now as for the EP's. If they came from the same seller I'm surprised Tom wouldn't write up COA's. But I understand what Marco wrote about it having to have rock solid provenance. I looked at the writing on the bottom of your R2 and it is similar to the writing under mine... Now I know that is not rock solid evidence but it's something... I just wonder if you are able to do more research from the seller lady and get more documentation from her, that Tom can write up proper COA's for you, mentioning they are EP's...
This was an interesting conversation. I hope the best for you BornTheYearOf and do hope you can get those COA's...
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 12:34 pm

Dr Dengar wrote:
To all,

No disrescpect, but BornTheYearOf's story had some elements in it, which could be regarded unlikely. So I understand Steve's questions for some proof.

We thought the best thing to do here was to contact Tom Derby to verify the story.


Tom just mailed and we are pleased that the story is truthfull.


Tom authenticated a red-caped Bib Fortuna, and a few first shots (a first shot Bespin blaster, first shot ISP-6, and 2 first shot Star Wars display stands) that BornTheYearOf was able to locate.

However he was not able to authenticate the Luke with a numbered foot. Tom needs very strong providence when it comes to EPs, as these are basically production items. Such strong providence was lacking in this case.


Thank you BornTheYearOf for speaking the truth,

Steve for asking critical questions,

And both for keeping it civil.


And off course, thank you Tom for helping us, much appreciated! Very Happy



Let's just move on with this great thread. cheers


Great detective work Marco - Thank you for getting to the bottom of this Very Happy

Lots of positive reputation points earned for BornTheYearOf for his honesty on the great find he uncovered cheers :clap: cheers
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 1:06 pm

The_Dark_Artist wrote:
I just wonder if you are able to do more research from the seller lady and get more documentation from her, that Tom can write up proper COA's for you
What do you think is required? I have the email address of the lady that owned them as well as an address also below is the email that I got from her, I removed the actually lady's name. Some of the details about the buyout of the companies may not be accurate but the email is exactly what was forwarded to me from her.
Previous items owner wrote:
I bought the cd of music in last 5 years

All other items were given to me for my son to play with They were given to
me by an old college roommate who eventually Was employed by Kenner toys in
Cincinnati ,Ohio Now deceased, her name was [removed] Kenner
was bought out by Hasbro? Then Hasbro bought out by Mattel, Then Mattel gone
etc?
Don't know who licensed the second round of Star Wars [removed] worked on
the first three by George Lucas Her job was a designer and then production
manager She also worked on developing Strawberry Shortcake items I'm not
sure but that jabba the hut was a prototype that wasn't used-the pose or
facial Feature....the stuffed items may have been samples? Other items may
have not made the cut...Can't remember.
But all items are from the beginning of the Luke and Hans Solo beginning
actors Carrie Fisher- and Harrison Ford .....
She kept everything secret until put out on shelves....the toy competition
was Keen in those days...still is...for pirating , copies,ideas, materials,
etc.
But we always got many toys ahead of time from Kenner products,courtesy of
[her] .
She also was instrumental with the Care Bears line. And Play Doh.
Somewhere I have a picture of my son surrounded with 30ish Kenner stuffed
characters.
She was in charge of picking materials,colors and pricing in the Asian
market.
An original artist - very detailed within her constricting budgets, and
valued by the Kenner Company.

[removed]
3/23/13


Last edited by BornTheYearOf on Fri May 17, 2013 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 1:10 pm

ourchickenshack wrote:
Lots of positive reputation points earned for BornTheYearOf for his honesty on the great find he uncovered cheers :clap: cheers
Thank you ourchickenshack
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 1:15 pm

BornTheYearOf wrote:
ourchickenshack wrote:
Lots of positive reputation points earned for BornTheYearOf for his honesty on the great find he uncovered cheers :clap: cheers
Thank you ourchickenshack

your welcome Wink
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 2:00 pm

I honestly think the historical provenance is pretty STRONG with that email. Concrete strong! Great stuff to read! I am not sure why Tom wouldn't write a COA for the EP's after seeing that letter and also considering they came with the other prototypes that were confirmed legit...
I may ask him again if I were you.
Again, great stuff. Incredible find : )
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat May 11, 2013 4:45 pm

Ok, moving on from the last ones, how about my squid head from the same collection....First off his left arm looked to be severed on purpose. I noticed it had a different looking collar and upon looking I noticed that it had red thread that was used on the back side. I also noticed the pattern or color of stitching was different around the collar. Unfortunately the head had broke when I was looking at the cape. Today I just noticed that his feet had been crushed. His belt is 175098 04 D. When I put him next to the squid head that was not from the collection, the paint on his hand was more of a dull browner color. The one from the sale is the one on the right. So my questions are is it normal for the red thread and also were some figures used as guinea pigs to test the plastic?







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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun May 12, 2013 10:10 pm

Wolff or anyone with Squid Head knowledge, can you guys look into BornTheYearOf's figure and cape? Obviously this came from an awesome find. I'd like to help him out as much as possible getting his questions answered : ) My knowledge lies more in the first 20, I wish I could help more... BUT I know plenty on TIG could lend a helping hand...
All my best, -Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Mon May 13, 2013 8:54 pm

For the sake of comparison.... I broke my other Squid Head so that I could compare the two. Sorry to all squid head fans Sad Items to note are one from the sale is always on the left. On the underside there is more flashing, The Mold mark is "A" versus "E". There are different circlular marks on the top of the head. There is a hole under the right eye and also has some paint under his eye. I did not take a picture of his legs but it looks like the COO and Copyright are closer to his boots.





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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Mon May 13, 2013 10:22 pm

There is a lot of differences from the production piece Squidhead compared to the figure in question. The extra flashing like you mentioned... But when you look at the heads upside down, the neck line on your possible protype is completely smooth, compared to the production piece. The differences are not subtle, but very different. Wolff noticed the difference in the wrist area also. The more I look at this, the more I think this was a sample/protoype piece.
Thanks for posting the pics...
I am including a photo you could possibly add to your R2 question... Is is an EP? I really believe it is a EP. I am including a side by side pic of my EP R2 that was bought by Tracey Hamilton from the Earth Co. in Cincinnati, Ohio. The provenance is 100% accurate and I think the writing under the foot is almost a perfect match. Both are Taiwan pieces too. You should pass this pic along to Tom Derby... He knows Tracey well. I'll look into your EP Luke next. Maybe Mattias, the GREAT farm boy Luke proto collector could give his thoughts on your possible EP Luke.... I love the mystery! Answers will come : )
-Steve



and the Luke FB...



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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Mon May 13, 2013 10:47 pm

And then there is this great pic. From the 2004 Earth find. This is where my EP Luke came from. Mattias's great DT tree was sold here... Bill McBride's DDT first shot Vader sold here too!!!
So the pic I am attaching shows the line up of EP Lukes. If you notice, some of them have dark marker used and some have finer and fainter marker used like yours... I circled a similar Luke that has "21" written under his foot. Very similar to your "12"...
I honestly have a hard time doubting your pieces are not EP's considering the items they came with. For one, you have a Red Cape Bib and then all the other first shot items, including the Leia first shot blaster. It would make no sense for anyone to write numbers under the feet of the Luke or R2... The history seems strong that these both are EP's. I do hope Tom signs COA's for you...

Your EP Luke


The Earth 2004 find EP Luke(s)
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Mon May 13, 2013 11:17 pm

Thanks for the additional research Steve, Now that I see this, it looks like the ones with the darker pants have the darker marker and the ones with the lighter pants used a different thinner lighter marker. Not sure if it matters but it looks to be the pattern and it fits with mine that has the lighter pant's with a thinner lighter marker...
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Mon May 13, 2013 11:34 pm

GREAT observation! So the Taiwan seem to be signed in a darker color, thicker marker like the one I have in my collection, and the HK seem to have a thinner, lighter number, that matches yours. Yours is HK correct, not Taiwan?
This makes perfect sense and more proof for Tom : )
That goes for my Taiwan EP R2. It matches yours exactly for number and color and yours is a Taiwan EP too : )
Again, more proof to pass along to Tom...
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Tue May 14, 2013 3:12 pm

The_Dark_Artist wrote:
Yours is HK correct, not Taiwan?
Yes It is HK
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