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 THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD

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sithtoys
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:21 pm

Artoo_Detour wrote:

Hey guys, just to derail for a moment, the + - bar at the top right activates your TIG reputation. You can see your TIG reputation status below your avatar pic. It's our version of the 'like' button. If you like a post then hit + and the poster will be awarded anything between 1 and 5 rep points.
Kevin and Bill, I just gave you both a + so you should see that your rep has increased by 5 points and your bar has turned green. Smile
The minus would turn it red and you'd lose a point. There is also a 'thanks' button at the top of the post for the original poster to thank contributers. You'll work it out.
Enjoy. Sorry, back on topic now Smile

Nice!! Thank you !! Smile

Jason, I thought there were more than (possibly) 6. That easily puts Jawa in the "Top 6" for the 1st 12 figures. That's one of the other reasons I posted
the pic from The Earth find. Some of those characters were only known in single digits before, then all of the sudden you get *that* in your email. (of course
you know where my brain immediately went Wink LOL) The Blue Snag is a good example, they were tough before, then all of the sudden you have TEN show
up at one time ?!? All first shots ??
You know how the market is - it's just hard to say really. I've seen exceptional pieces, at very fair prices sit and collect dust, while people sell organs and
body parts for common MOC figures just to jump up 5 points on the AFA scale. It doesn't, and will never make sense to me. I do know that the majority of the
high end pieces have all been private sales, and some of those have been well into the 5-figure range.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:37 am

That is one aspect of the collecting market that has ALWAYS amazed me. Some collectors have no problems paying $7,000 for a MOC Trilogo General Madine, but would probably cringe at paying $4,500 for a nice hardcopy. The number of first shot Jawas could easily be higher than six. The earliest find that I have been able to document goes back to 1995, when The Earth sold some first shots.. Unfortunately, I do not have any pictures from this sale..

Also, a good reference for "old sales" is Chris G. Scrapbook site.

Chris G's Toy Shop Scrapbook


I know of one collector that is attempting to put together a full fun of the "first twenty" in first shot or pre-production form. I do not think he posts here, but will plug his site..

Amazing Run


Just curious, but has anyone tracked or posted a list of hardest to easiest to find Star Wars related first shots?
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:08 am

Whoa, sick photo, Bill. Wonder how much one of those FX-7's would go for today. Always was one of my favorites as a kid Smile
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:57 am


Though I cannot post pictures, out of respect for their current owners, I have documented five vintage jawa first shots.

1. Hand Painted (correct legs) with unproduced cape (above).
2. Hand Painted (legs backwards) with unproduced cape.
3. Production Painted (two right legs) with unproduced cape.
4. Production Painted with hand cut cape (production)
5. Production Painted first shot with no cape[/quote]

Hi Jason ,i'm trying to match this list with the first shots that i'm aware of, does this list include the #8 #16 and #18 ?
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:22 am

Objectively, Darth Vader is the toughest of the 1st 12. There are only three confirmed FSs known to exist, and all three are
unique. Of these, one is an unproduced mock up, and the other two are "brothers" with a different type of prototype DT light
saber. So it really compounds the unique nature of these.
I'm sure a running total could be complied, but I would caution against two things - duplication(s) figures (pieces that have traded
hands), and items in private collections. Still, I think a "ballpark" of what is out there could be put together. I'm also inclined to
put items that are purely internal Kenner pieces such as figures that were made from low yield molds, or "bench shots" into a
slightly different classification. In a general sense they are "first shots", but were made (literally) in house at Kenner. So they
really are completely different animals one you give them a hard look.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:04 pm

@orangpendek wrote:

Though I cannot post pictures, out of respect for their current owners, I have documented five vintage jawa first shots.

1. Hand Painted (correct legs) with unproduced cape (above).
2. Hand Painted (legs backwards) with unproduced cape.
3. Production Painted (two right legs) with unproduced cape.
4. Production Painted with hand cut cape (production)
5. Production Painted first shot with no cape

Hi Jason ,i'm trying to match this list with the first shots that i'm aware of, does this list include the #8 #16 and #18 ?
[/quote]

Just curious, but are the #8, #16 and #18 referring to numbers on bottom of the figures feet or on the inside of the cape? If so, I would be inclined to think these are Engineering Pilots. Since Engineering Pilots contain copyright information, I would not include these in my list. If not, please PM me, as I would love to collaborate on some other details...
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:27 pm

@sithtoys wrote:
Objectively, Darth Vader is the toughest of the 1st 12. There are only three confirmed FSs known to exist, and all three are
unique.

Bill

I think another has come into discovery fairly recently. Out of respect for the current owner, I can't call it out, but i think we should see it in a limelight fairly soon. I would be anxious to get your take on it Bill. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:55 pm

I have this to add, my run of Cantina First Shots:







I feel very fortunate to have been able to acquire Red Snag. To date, the only known Red Snag Fist Shot was the one Chris G had with the black hands and feet that you can see on the SW Archive.

Thanks to Chris, Grant, Ben, Tom and Cesar respectively.

Anyways, for the sake of records,

Blue Snag has the #6 on his foot
Hammerhead has the #10 on his foot

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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:06 pm

Dylan,

Wow and WOW.. You have an amazing run of Cantina First Shots.. I love it..
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:40 pm

@dylbacca wrote:

I think another has come into discovery fairly recently. Out of respect for the current owner, I can't call it out, but i think we should see it in a limelight fairly soon. I would be anxious to get your take on it Bill. Smile

Dylan, there is one other that has been rumored to exist for decades, but between Tom (D) and I, we haven't seen so much as a pic since the date
of the actual document, so if it's that piece it would be amazing.
On the other hand, all three Vader FSs I mentioned are in my collection, so if this were a new/undocumented piece I would have to wonder why I wasn't
contacted to cross reference details on it to verify the authenticity. There are specific mold flaws on each Vader FS that serve as a "fingerprint" that allow
each figure to be matched to the original Kenner mold. For obvious reasons, I've never made those details known to anyone.
Interesting indeed

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:05 pm

I wanted to add this. My First Shot Ben. Notice the extra flashing on the feet, hips. He is hand glued and hand-painted. The head is made from a different material than the production version, much more detail with no coo or date.
This First Shot Ben has a early prototype translucent DT saber.

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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:42 am

Steve, that's an insanely awesome figure. Seeing all these first shots is getting me thinking about putting some $ into starting my own collection!

If you don't mind me asking - what does this go for? Presumably much more than a regular DT Ben?
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:23 pm

@sith jawa wrote:
@orangpendek wrote:

Though I cannot post pictures, out of respect for their current owners, I have documented five vintage jawa first shots.

1. Hand Painted (correct legs) with unproduced cape (above).
2. Hand Painted (legs backwards) with unproduced cape.
3. Production Painted (two right legs) with unproduced cape.
4. Production Painted with hand cut cape (production)
5. Production Painted first shot with no cape

Hi Jason ,i'm trying to match this list with the first shots that i'm aware of, does this list include the #8 #16 and #18 ?

Just curious, but are the #8, #16 and #18 referring to numbers on bottom of the figures feet or on the inside of the cape? If so, I would be inclined to think these are Engineering Pilots. Since Engineering Pilots contain copyright information, I would not include these in my list. If not, please PM me, as I would love to collaborate on some other details... [/quote]

Embarassed feel a bit silly now, you're absolutely correct they are all enginering pilots.One of them does have a handcut production cape but the figure has it's coo markings .
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:36 pm

@orangpendek wrote:

Embarassed feel a bit silly now, you're absolutely correct they are all enginering pilots.One of them does have a handcut production cape but the figure has it's coo markings .

No problem at all. We are all here to learn and enjoy our hobby. Interesting that each of the EP's I have seen or heard of have hand cut capes.. Very unusual, but I guess Kenner really did care.. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:48 am

@sith jawa wrote:
@orangpendek wrote:

Embarassed feel a bit silly now, you're absolutely correct they are all enginering pilots.One of them does have a handcut production cape but the figure has it's coo markings .

No problem at all. We are all here to learn and enjoy our hobby. Interesting that each of the EP's I have seen or heard of have hand cut capes.. Very unusual, but I guess Kenner really did care.. Wink

Actually, that's something I've never really taken a close look at myself, which I'm embarrassed to say. The obvious issue with marking Vader EPs is of course that the figures are
shot in black, and Kenner used black or blue markers. Most of them (Vader EPs) have a dab of paint on the bottom of the feet, then a number applied over that.
I think I've looked at everything else you can think of really; figural details, flaws, excess flashing, plastic variations, etc - but I've never sat down and done a cape comparison on
any of my EPs - time to do some homework !!! Smile Smile

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:42 pm

This is the greatness of a pre-production thread. The minor details that makes us go, damn, I did not think of that.

Though I have only held four EP's in my hand (total), the numbers have all been in black. A sharpie or black marker, maybe, but the color has always been the same. The capes were hand cut and roughly a 1/4" shorter than the production version. There were some other flaws as well, but I would rather not make those public...
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:06 pm

Hey turkdlit, I think all the first shots can get pretty expensive my friend. The prices also vary by accessories. For example if a first shot has a special hand cut cape, or mushroom tip saber. I'm sure the others could add to this. But I truly think any of the ANH first shots are historically rare and cool figures, especially the first 12.... But like Bill mentioned, some are certainly more rare then others, which will certainly affect price. For me, I try not to put a price on them because it would be the last thing I would ever consider selling. It's more about preservation to me from something truly unique in the history of Star Wars figures and collectibles.
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:13 am

stevefdwyer wrote:
Hey turkdlit, I think all the first shots can get pretty expensive my friend. The prices also vary by accessories. For example if a first shot has a special hand cut cape, or mushroom tip saber. I'm sure the others could add to this. But I truly think any of the ANH first shots are historically rare and cool figures, especially the first 12.... But like Bill mentioned, some are certainly more rare then others, which will certainly affect price. For me, I try not to put a price on them because it would be the last thing I would ever consider selling. It's more about preservation to me from something truly unique in the history of Star Wars figures and collectibles.

This is something I've discussed with Steve privately concerning some of his pieces, but it's really something (in general) that everyone should take to heart.
In a way, as rare as some of these pieces are, and as tough as it is to find/buy them, that's really the easy part. Doing the due diligence, research and documentation
is the hard part. In some cases it either doesn't exist, or it takes years to track down a single lead or a scrap of information. As custodians of these items, I have
always felt it is an imperative part of the process. I have stacks of notes and articles I have kept over the years, so the provenance I established for my pieces (in
some cases) took 2x's as long as it did to actually find the piece itself.
As rare as FS are, there are significant differences among them. An internal Kenner FS, or a "bench shot" is a completely different animal than a later FS from a more
standard mold. Bench shots were made in house (literally) at Kenner using low yield molds to create only a handful of figures, which is why so few remain today. These
aren't actually as "tight" as a more refined, later FS, and as I mentioned before - specific to the Vader examples actually have mold flaws which can be identified on the
figures themselves.
I agree with Steve, some of these pieces are just out these in pricing. It pretty much comes down to whatever the owner/seller wants in some cases. From a personal
perspective, I've lost track of the offers I've received on mine, and I flat out tell people they aren't for sale. I don't even "see" the price or listen to it. They are just
very special pieces to me, and two of them are part of my set of prototype DT Vaders, so the chance of those ever being sold is zero.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:34 pm

Bill,

Very well stated and I agree 100%.

It has taken me a few years to piece together the history of the first shot Jawas that I am aware of. From the date of the find to the current owner and some other minor details, it takes a LOT of patience and luck to document this stuff. Though I do not own all of them, I have a very good idea of what differences each one have, concerning arm thickness, cape texture, etc. This might sound arrogant, but I WANT to be a solid resource for first shot Jawas.

Concerning offers for figures. I consider it a compliment if a collector offers me their hard earned money for a figure. Of course, that is just my opinion..
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:40 am

@sith jawa wrote:

It has taken me a few years to piece together the history of the first shot Jawas that I am aware of. From the date of the find to the current owner and some other minor details, it takes a LOT of patience and luck to document this stuff. Though I do not own all of them, I have a very good idea of what differences each one have, concerning arm thickness, cape texture, etc. This might sound arrogant, but I WANT to be a solid resource for first shot Jawas.
Concerning offers for figures. I consider it a compliment if a collector offers me their hard earned money for a figure. Of course, that is just my opinion..

Logically, and even from a research perspective - you would think that is where someone would start, or at the very least cross check information. I don't think it's
arrogant at all - especially if you consider someone saying/thinking "Hey, _______ has been collecting this for 20+ years, maybe we should check with him/her" Wink
LOL But - this is the prerogative of the collector, just as it is our prerogative to consider how/what/when we choose to share the information we have cataloged
over the years. You would like to think that in the long run people have the history of the hobby in mind, but it's really not the case. A great example are DT sabers -
everyone flocks to them, but the only two people who can authenticate the run of them are Tom and myself. Tom does it professionally, I do it for free. I could easily
change that, but as a collector it's not where my heart is at. I genuinely enjoy helping people when I can, and making discoveries along the way.
Although - the idea of creating my own Vader book is pretty exciting. Not a guide or a reference really - something along the lines of Steve's "1,000 Collectibles", but
just for Vader Smile (before anyone asks - NO, there is not, nor will there ever be a guide/book/reference for DT sabers. Ever, in any form, on any planet. End of story)

Bill

~ on a side note, I checked all the capes on my EPs, and there really aren't any irregularities. I even used a micrometer and I didn't find anything that jumped out at
me as being unusual. It definitely merits some deeper research - by definition, an EP shouldn't have any variations from a production figure, so finding a major element
such as a hand cut cape is unusual. It could very well be specific to the Jawa. Kenner might have been trying out slightly different cuts/designs to the cape to give it a unique
shape. (if you look at the basic silhouette for all the vinyl capes - Ben, Vader, TR, Jawa, etc. they are all pretty much in the same ballpark) Jawa is the only one that changed
over to the cloth cape early on, so from a conceptual stand point, it had to be brewing at Kenner for some time. (JMO of course)
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:32 pm

Jason, can you possibly PM me your private email address, as I have a proto cape question for you. When I bought my FS Ben I thought he came with a regular production cape. On further inspection, and with the help of Bill, I noticed thick paint on the inner cape that came from the figure when it was hand painted. The paint from the hand painted head was still wet when the cape was put on and transferred to cape. This was a BIG sign it was the original cape the FS Ben came with. Then I took detailed pictures and the texture in the crosshatching is the fine detailed type that does not match a production Ben cape, but matches more a Jawa cape. I want to send you pics to get your opinion if you wouldn't mind....
Thanks, -Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:09 pm

I have taken quite a few pics but here is the paint that transferred from Ben's head after it was painted onto the inner cape. The brush strokes match those on the back of his head and the color is exact too. Because it's not just paint residue, but rather thick paint strokes makes me really believe this was the original cape. This is all very exciting (I hope) to find that this cape very well may have been the original since the beginning. I just want to add to the provenance of this piece. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. I also attached a pic that shows the fine crosshatching detail.
Thanks for opinions if you have any : )













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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:32 pm

A comparison pic of a production VC Jawa and First Shot Ben cape.

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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:20 am

Steve,

Nice pictures and comparison shots. In the last picture, the colors of the capes seems to match. Funny how ignorant collectors/scammers would cut a production Ben cape and place it on Jawa, then try to pass it off for the real thing..

The silver paint on the back of the cape is interesting and I would agree (personally) that it seems to have come from the back of the head. There seems to be some minor cracks in the plastic along the top of the arms, near the shoulder. I wonder if this would have resulted from low yield molds or possibly an internal/in house figure? Also, I remember James Gallo selling a first shot or possibly engineering pilot Ben with a much darker cape. A dark brown color, if memory serves.. The lightsaber is very cool as well. Cheers for an outstanding piece...
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PostSubject: Re: THE PRE-PRODUCTION / PROTOTYPES THREAD    Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:16 am

Sorry for the confusion. I was not comparing colors of the capes. I apologize, my pics, the colors are all over the place. This is a Ben cape and it is the color of one. But what I was comparing was the texture on the cape. The texture on this FS figure's cape seems more like a jawa, and is different then a normal production Ben cape That may stay a mystery, and that's ok.
I am very happy about the paint on the inner robe. I looked closely and carefully again last night and the brush strokes/color matches up to the paint on the back of his head perfectly. It's like a fingerprint.
-Steve
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