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 Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing

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Wampa
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PostSubject: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:52 pm

Hi guys,

I know there are many Boba Fett variants. But I don't seem to find any certain info regarding the paler one on the right.

They're both Hong Kong COO:s, number 2 in the TIG COO-guide I think (coo and year goes a bit higher up the leg on the darker grey one).

Besides the pale colour the one on the right differs in the following aspects:
– The yellow colour is a lighter yellow (the left one is orange)
– The yellow paint is somewhat less accurately sprayed on.
– The chest is olive green (the left is grassy)
– The rocket is somewhat paler and not as glossy as the right one (pardon me for not having any pictures of this)

To me, it doesn't seem to be bleached by the sun. It is evenly coloured. and if there is a difference in the colour of the belt it is far from obvious. It was bought from an American collector who bought it in a second hand toy shop perhaps 10 years ago. He's unfamiliar with variants.

I truly enjoy learning from the experienced and devoted collectors of TIG. Hope that you kan help med out this time!




Last edited by Wampa on Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:22 pm

Hi welcome This is a debatable topic. To me it is degradation.










There has been other discussions about the lighter limbed HK Fett ( I'll try to find them )
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:43 pm

Thank you for the pictures, input and welcome Very Happy

I wasn't able to find a relevant thread, but would very much like to read them. I'm don't know too much about degradation, but I hope that you are wrong Very Happy The more original variants the merrier.

/Olof
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:59 pm

Perhaps another question is in order:

Does anyone know of a light yellow Boba that's not a Hong Kong COO? perhaps they're all even number 3 in the COO-guide?

If there are no other we'll know that this COO either was made with less sustainable material, or it is in fact an original variant.

That's a start at least.

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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:17 pm

[quote=Wbobafett]Thanks for all the nice words! Smile

[quote=danaustin1975]Very impressive Fett run.

Is that HK coo 1 a light limbs Fett? I'm wondering because I've got the same figure and wondered what it's name was. [/quote]

It has light limbs yes, but IMO all light limbs are fade through sunlight. (If I ever will find this figure with unfaded limbs I will replace him) Wink

Does yours have also darkbrown belt and helmet paint???


regards wolff [/quote]



Tri logo with 'fading' colours

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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:27 am

I'd agree with James on this, I've seen many of these and believe it to be fading
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:21 am

Thank you, aussiejames and bootyhunter.

BH: It's great that you've seen many of them. Can you say if they have different COO:s? And are there any dark grey/light yellow combinations out there?

Without ruling out the theory of fading, it would be nice to see what we can figure (!) out by deduction.

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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:27 am

This variation guide seem to be relevant:

It is a technical card written by Mexican collectors (Gálvez) who also wrote a Lily Ledy Boba Fett feature for Universo Star Wars magazine. Pictured on the lower row you'll find a Hong Kong variant with limbs molded in a lighter colour than the torso. A description that I now see fits my figure as well as the picture offered by aussiejames. It also has the lighter yellow paint. Still the guide was, I think, started in 2003. So there doesn't seem to be any actual proof.

This also seems to be mentioned in threads here at TIG and other places. But usually people just mentions the limbs and not the yellow. So I guess the relevant question at this point is:

Are there any other Boba Fetts with light yellow paint besides the Hong Kong light limbs one?

Thanks.

Link to swca page on the technical cards: http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=48167

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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:36 am

"Are there any other Boba Fetts with light yellow paint besides the Hong Kong light limbs one?"

YES, the 'yellow' paint in Wolff's line up is not the 'light limb' version. My faded Tri is close to yellow.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:44 am

I have done a lot of experimentation and restoring yellowing of figures and ships the past year. Where the largest have been a Imperial Shuttle.




(A little proof of concept I did soon a year ago, where half is restored. My photoskills also evolved during this time lol)

Though I have trouble to see how this Boba and the "very" many others could get the exact same results with fading. Fading in sunlight should be a long process and yellowing should then occur before that, so far nothing I have had in for restoring that is yellowed have become a lighter color then it originally was, because adding the color yellow into the plastic does only darken colors.

It would though make sense if it was a trilogo boba that had started yellowing but since the coo is wrong it isn't. The problem that I see is that a dark blue figure does not get bright blue by yellowing, instead it would become green.

The source of the yellowing I believe is flame protective chemicals which cause the yellowing to exposure to heat, uv-light and many other factors. This was used in all vintage toys sadly. It was also poorly mixed resulting in some yellowing faster then others, and even different parts on the same figures yellowing at a faster speed.

So if fading really is the case and occur faster then yellowing it must be something special in Bobas paint that was used for the plastic, because I have seen very many yellowed figures with non faded paint.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:29 am

@aussiejames wrote:
"Are there any other Boba Fetts with light yellow paint besides the Hong Kong light limbs one?"

YES, the 'yellow' paint in Wolff's line up is not the 'light limb' version. My faded Tri is close to yellow.

Thanks for that, great that you continue this thread.

It does seem to support the fading theory or perhaps "this is how it looks when we need to change the paint tube-theory". Although, I must say that your fading Tri-logo looks like the common orange colour to me. And your two tri-logos correspond to the two versions on the technical card above. Have you had it a long time and been able to see the change?

I'm familiar with Rawlins work on yellowing, but that X-wing just blows my mind everytime Very Happy

With regards to your thoughts on fading, they're very interesting and I think we've now reached the point were we have to

1) Make an experiment and study how (some loose limbs) Boba Fett react to sunshine and
2) Get some hardcore chemists and plastic experts to join the TIG. But I'm almost sure that you're already here. No? Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:48 pm

Okay this is going to sound weird but as a fett collector occasionally I make mistakes and end up with regular fetts instead of the rarity I thought I might of been buying, as a result my daughter has a few which she enjoys playing with in the bath!

They have all faded and yes the yellow is a lot lighter on them, I've seen many sellers touting pale limbed fetts but I am sure it is just fading.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:33 pm

welcome to TIG Wampa! You kicked off with an interesting thread.


@Rawlin wrote:
Fading in sunlight should be a long process and yellowing should then occur before that, so far nothing I have had in for restoring that is yellowed have become a lighter color then it originally was, because adding the color yellow into the plastic does only darken colors.

It would though make sense if it was a trilogo boba that had started yellowing but since the coo is wrong it isn't. The problem that I see is that a dark blue figure does not get bright blue by yellowing, instead it would become green.


Interesting theory.

Fading is IMO caused by the degradation of pigments in the figures' paints and plastics by visible/UV light. The slow decrease of pigments causes a gradual decrease in colour intensity, something we perceive as fading.
So my guess is that when the blue pigment in the Boba Fett figure degrades, you end up with a lesser blue (faded) figure, not necessarily with a green figure.

Look at the left prune Face below. The green paint of the legs consists of yellow and blue pigments. Just by nature, the yellow pigments absorb more of the energy rich blue/UV light than their blue pigments during time, causing them to degrade faster. We see two things: the green is shifted to blue (less yellow), and the colour is less intense (faded).




Yellowing is something else. It is caused by chemical oxidation reactions within the plastic, either spontaneously or initiated by (again!) visible/UV light or heat. And once started probably accelerated by temperature fluctuations and humidity. To make a long story short, in the end you have more molecules in the plastic which absorb blue light giving the plastic a yellow appearance.

It would be interesting to see whether the fading of a green pigment (by degradation of the yellow pigments) can be counteracted by yellowing of the plastic. Or maybe that is already the case for the middle and right Prune Face figures. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:40 pm

@Rawlin wrote:




BTW: Your ''Tatooine" X-Wing reminded me to something else. Very Happy


Source: http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=50986
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:45 pm

Very Happy That's a nice story bootyhunter and the fact that it also manages to keep within the subject of the thread is great.
Just watch out, before long the daughters of Star Wars collectors around the world have turned the ordinary Boba into a pale (but clean) rarity. :I am stupid:

Are the colours of the torsos distinct from the limbs? And are the red colours lighter as well?

I would be great if you could fetch some pale Bobas out of the bath and post a picture here, but I understand it's a lot to ask.

I find that my Boba is not as pale (or white) as the one on the technical card (above), in fact it's closer to the Tri-logo on the left. And the difference between the torso and the limbs is minimal. But perhaps this is a phase it passes on its way to deeper degradation.

Dr Dengar: Thank you very much and thanks for clarifying and making the investigation more interesting. I think what you're saying sounds very reasonable and it would be nice to see if Rawlin or any other member can take it any further. As for me, I need to absorb it for a while – the way my Boba, more and more it seems, has been absorbing that UV light.

/Olof

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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:55 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:

BTW: Your ''Tatooine" X-Wing reminded me to something else. Very Happy


Source: http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=50986

Thats one cool vehicle Smile I have never seen that one before, is it a mod of the normal snowspeeder or is it a prototype?

There is only one thing I react on of the prunefaces, it's that the color is not the same in his scrotum and legs. Why did it only fade on the legs? I do see yellowing, maybe there is a connection with the flame resistant chemicals after all.
Or the color was just mixed wrong when molding the legs Razz I have seen that pruneface before, isn't that some kind of variation?
I don't remember what green plus yellow becomes in color so maybe it's that color Razz

But what I have seen on darker colors is that they get a strong input of yellow in them, doing discoloring of what ever it was from start, and the worst I have seen have been dark brown, almost black. On colors like dark purple this wouldn't be very visible unless comparing to a non yellowed one.

Paint can be tricky and hide yellowing, and sometimes the yellowing under the paint affect the color of the paint. Have an R2 where this is the case.

I still think fading takes a lot of time, and there should be a noticeable amount of yellowing on a faded figure.

Edit: I forgot to type that the Tatooine X-Wing was pimped a bit with worn stickers and no windshield, heat just beats in through that window making it like a glasshouse plus a leatherseat. So while driving an X-Wing on Tatooine it was prefered to simply remove the windshield, and paint it yellow as camouflage. Canons where not really needed and would probably be stolen anyway. Throwing it in the floor a few time while imagining it crashes helps to recreate this pimped out x-wing too.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:24 pm



Here are two of my daughters 'bobs' as she calls them
Note that the taiwan on the right has faded limbs but the paintis yet to change, whereas the HK has much lighter yellow
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:33 pm

The yellowing is really breaking though on that right one. It's taking over. At that one it's clearly visible that it is also yellowed.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:49 pm

@bootyhunter wrote:


Here are two of my daughters 'bobs' as she calls them
Note that the taiwan on the right has faded limbs but the paintis yet to change, whereas the HK has much lighter yellow

Great, thanks! And I understood you correctly that the one on the left had similar orange-like paint when purchased?

Rawlin: The Pruneface torso (of which the scrotum is a part) is made of harder plastic than the limbs. I suppose this could result in different degradation speed?

Edit: I have a similar Pruneface with the same difference, but th legs still has more green in them. And green + yellow, I'm pretty sure doesn't turn into a basic colour, arhter itäs greenish yellow.



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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:59 pm

@Wampa wrote:
@bootyhunter wrote:


Here are two of my daughters 'bobs' as she calls them
Note that the taiwan on the right has faded limbs but the paintis yet to change, whereas the HK has much lighter yellow

Great, thanks! And I understood you correctly that the one on the left had similar orange-like paint when purchased?

Rawlin: The Pruneface torso (of which the scrotum is a part) is made of harder plastic than the limbs. I suppose this could result in different degradation speed?




I believe that the legs and "torso" sorry about the scrotum part, but the lower part of the torso was the only painted part Razz anyway they where molded separately arms and legs there, torso there etc. and when they mixed in the flame resistant chemicals they mixed it wrong on the plastic used for the legs, resulting in a different result between the two. It could also imo be a poorly mixed color when making the legs. And the quality standards where not very high.

Regarding hard plastic it yellows very good, it also responds very good to treatment, where the rubbery like material for arms and legs get a rather low success rate and is much much harder to restore. The hard torso pbp stormtroopers probably is the most responding figures if treated.

Btw I forgot to say I like that she calls them bobs Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:11 pm

According to lando's locker a light limbed HK fett is a variant
unsure
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:32 pm

@bootyhunter wrote:
According to lando's locker a light limbed HK fett is a variant
unsure

Yeah, there's certainly no consensus. And I must admit that I have not yet seen any convincing argument for either side. But I'm still interested in your Boba with light yellow paint. Are you sure that the colour was once more orange-like? For me it's hard to see the colour change in this direction.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:08 pm

There is a consensus. Faded limbs/faded colors Fetts weren't an intended variation. They weren't made that way(well, not intentionally). However, they do make cool combinations of colored pads, torso/limb combinations, etc. They do look cool and look different, so if that's a variation to someone, then its a variation. But, it's not a variation in the terms most collectors consider them to be. Just like blue/ purple smocked ugnaughts, green limbed/pouched chewbaccas, green haired Madines are considered variations to some, but they are not variations that the factory intended. Just because one plastic batch from one factory degrades differently or quicker doesn't mean its special from one that has retained its original characteristics and/or in its original condition.

Here's a couple links from RS regarding this topic of faded Fetts...

http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=3058641

http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=4606223




And in this thread, there's a pic of one of my bi-colored pad Fetts with faded limbs and one knee is yellow and one is orange. There was even an auction recently for a bi-colored pad and belt tri-logo Fett that I was the 2nd highest bidder on.

http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=4645943

Also wanted to add that some Fetts were painted with different colors, maybe more yellow, orange, etc. and we all have seen many different chest colors and belt colors especially with European/trilogo Fetts. I'm not saying that all color differences are due to degredation, mainly just these faded limbed Fetts.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:57 am

Great post Andy!!! Very Happy


@Rawlin wrote:

There is only one thing I react on of the prunefaces, it's that the color is not the same in his scrotum and legs. Why did it only fade on the legs? I do see yellowing, maybe there is a connection with the flame resistant chemicals after all.
Or the color was just mixed wrong when molding the legs Razz I have seen that pruneface before, isn't that some kind of variation?
I don't remember what green plus yellow becomes in color so maybe it's that color Razz


A green colour is a combination of yellow and blue pigments. In case the yellow pigments fade, the blue pigments start to '''overrule", so you end up with a more blueish green. That is exactly what you see wit Prune Face's legs. They start to look like the blue background colour.

On the belly part (I think the term scrotum is reserved for something else in English Very Happy), the green is painted instead of moulded within the plastic. It is a totally different setting which might somehow explain the different vulnerability towards fading.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. The orange colour on Boba's patches is a combination of red and yellow pigments. The red pigments are even more prone to fading when exposed to visible/UV light than the yellow pigments (just look what happens with the red paint on cars after ten years). So the yellow pigments start to ''overrule'' and the patches turn more yellowish. Just my 5 cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Boba Fett Loose variant – In depth discussion about discoloration and yellowing   Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:29 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:
Great post Andy!!! Very Happy


@Rawlin wrote:

There is only one thing I react on of the prunefaces, it's that the color is not the same in his scrotum and legs. Why did it only fade on the legs? I do see yellowing, maybe there is a connection with the flame resistant chemicals after all.
Or the color was just mixed wrong when molding the legs Razz I have seen that pruneface before, isn't that some kind of variation?
I don't remember what green plus yellow becomes in color so maybe it's that color Razz


A green colour is a combination of yellow and blue pigments. In case the yellow pigments fade, the blue pigments start to '''overrule", so you end up with a more blueish green. That is exactly what you see wit Prune Face's legs. They start to look like the blue background colour.

On the belly part (I think the term scrotum is reserved for something else in English Very Happy), the green is painted instead of moulded within the plastic. It is a totally different setting which might somehow explain the different vulnerability towards fading.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. The orange colour on Boba's patches is a combination of red and yellow pigments. The red pigments are even more prone to fading when exposed to visible/UV light than the yellow pigments (just look what happens with the red paint on cars after ten years). So the yellow pigments start to ''overrule'' and the patches turn more yellowish. Just my 5 cents.

What if one factory ran out of pigment due to poorly planning and the pigments couldn't arrive until next monday. Stop Production or use whatever you had left? Light blue limbs better then no bobas.

I read a bit into the rebelscum thread and I got to note on the oily/sticky part. This is common on opened MOTU MOCs. Why I don't know but they are not discolored.

I'm not really sure how long I have been collecting, Since I had some pauses, but I would say maybe 10-15years. And what i can tell none of my figures during this time have faded, but some have yellowed. And I remember the boba I bought as a kid that was "faded" already back then. I actually thought that all bobas looked like that for a pretty long time as a kid. First time I got a hold on a regular Hong kong next to my tri logo there was a obvious difference.

That different pigments in one figure breaks down at different speed, for example red breaks down leaving only yellow etc is a bit advanced. And wouldn't there just be much more simple if it was a brighter blue that is yellowed. White for example is clearly visible when yellowed, most of my stormtroopers are, and 2 of my leias. Even small amount's of yellowing is visible on light colors. Maybe they let through more light and yellow easier.

Guess like it's like Wampa said, only way to find out is to replicate it. I so far have not seen any evidence to either side. If it is degrading plastic or not. But that boba with one arm not yellowed, is probably because of poorly mixed flame resistant chemicals in the other parts. I can't put my life on it but I imagine that they shoveled the pieces down in different boxes left arm, right arm, left leg etc and in assembly they randomly picked legs and arms etc out of those boxes. I might be wrong, in which case I don't understand that boba.
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