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 Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.

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Chris_J
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:41 pm

Sounds like a regular storage shed then. Temps will go crazy in those things. I would never storage collectables in those things unless its a temp controlled one and then I would rather have it at the house. As for it discoloring at different rates, thats already been shown on some thats been posted already. It all depends on the make up of the plastic. Some go faster than others and then add in the fact they've been in storage for who knows how long doesnt help them either. Plus like you said the heat and cold plus the package they were in getting wet and damp. Not good. Nice looking figures regardless.
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PostSubject: luke orange toffe turning orange.    Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:44 pm

@skywalkerhu wrote:
could anybody show me a pic from those "orange" hair Luke figures?
hers the one i refer to that i suspect is a toffee going orange but the colors are not correct on the upload..
compared to actual phot i have. darn it.
the latter fig is the darker toffe hair var.
Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket
different fig same marking. darker hair
Photobucket


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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:12 pm

http://forum.rebelscum.com/imagepopup.php?imagename=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.rebelscum.com%2Fphotogallery%2Fdata%2F500%2FSDC100015.JPG
Robbie's pic. orange hair vs the other 41E 'variant'
So with the dark brown hair & Neon's that's 4 versions scratch
or the '41E varaint' is the same as Neon's (which has degraded in storage)
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:59 am



I think there are 3 brown hair Luke's (Dark Brown, Red/Brown and Olive/Brown). It looks like you have the Dark brown and the Red/Brown. Both these share the same rough moulding on the back of the head as the Orange hair Luke but there really is no comparison in colour. The Orange hair Luke is quite bright and I haven't seen anything close to it to suggest a transition.

I think the Orange hair Luke pictured above is mine. I've attached a couple of comparison photos


L-R: Blonde, Light Brown (Olive/Brown), Light Brown (Red/Brown), Dark Brown, Orange


Close up Orange hair
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:14 pm

@olisuds wrote:





L-R: Blonde, Light Brown (Olive/Brown), Light Brown (Red/Brown), Dark Brown, Orange


So how about this little theory? (based upon Neon's and Olisud's posts):

- True variant: blonde, olive/brown, dark brown, orange
- Transformant: red/brown (decolored dark brown), the figure in the middle
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:08 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:
So how about this little theory? (based upon Neon's and Olisud's posts):

- True variant: blonde, olive/brown, dark brown, orange
- Transformant: red/brown (decolored dark brown), the figure in the middle

Id say you got it nailed pretty good, Marco. Anything else other than the true ones, to me, would be deteriated/faded from one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:49 pm

Its certainly a possibility although I would expect to see some examples of a missing link in the transformation. Even the Dark Brown and Red/Brown are quite distinct from each other. It could simply be different mixes of paint.

So what is the Aussie Orange Hair Luke? I've heard about it but never seen it?
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:55 pm

@aussiejames wrote:
If we can safely say degarded plastic is not a variant neither is degraded paint? If the different 'recipe' argument is used for paint it could be used for plastic to legitimise variants. ie. this batch of plastic (variant recipe) has resulted in green limb chewie....

Everyone will have there own definition of a variant it will never be clearcut. For me there are enough 'true' variants as there is. I look at leg markings (COO) , specific mold differences, and then paint apps in that order. Then it is 'legitimised' by having a duplicate or seeing another in someone elses collection.

This has always been my opinion and its why I think the white arm Lobot is a variant. I consider discoloration that is down to a factory error to be a legitimate variation. Its the same in many other circles of collecting.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:39 pm

@olisuds wrote:


This has always been my opinion and its why I think the white arm Lobot is a variant. I consider discoloration that is down to a factory error to be a legitimate variation. Its the same in many other circles of collecting.

In general: In case a factory error occurs only once the figure is a rarity which slipped through Quality Control but not a variant IMO. Things change when the same error has been made consistently for a (limited) number of figures. The Ledy removable rocket Boba Fett comes into mind here. The rocket is loose because the figure is not welded correctly. What do you think, guys?

Now about the white arm Lobot. Do I understand it correctly when you link this figure to a factory error?
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:02 pm

@olisuds wrote:

This has always been my opinion and its why I think the white arm Lobot is a variant. I consider discoloration that is down to a factory error to be a legitimate variation. Its the same in many other circles of collecting.
White arm lobot gets extra 'credit' because it's pictured in Sansweet's action figure archive, same as light limb Boba : http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=48167

to me both are versions of a variant tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:21 am

@aussiejames wrote:

White arm lobot gets extra 'credit' because it's pictured in Sansweet's action figure archive

Yes nothing is ever wrong in that book Wink


@aussiejames wrote:
@phreatobite wrote:
It's the same with General Lando isn't it? I've seen quite a few with grey palace blasters on FeeBay.
yes only black. But there is incorrect info out there, ie. Steve Sansweet's book 'the action figure archive' has Lando general pictured with a grey blaster. (it also has the A-wing & B-wing pilot blasters mixed up )

FWIW, I think the Lobot looks cool but I would prefer to have one that had limbs that were the same colour,..as intended Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:02 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:
@olisuds wrote:


This has always been my opinion and its why I think the white arm Lobot is a variant. I consider discoloration that is down to a factory error to be a legitimate variation. Its the same in many other circles of collecting.

In general: In case a factory error occurs only once the figure is a rarity which slipped through Quality Control but not a variant IMO. Things change when the same error has been made consistently for a (limited) number of figures. The Ledy removable rocket Boba Fett comes into mind here. The rocket is loose because the figure is not welded correctly. What do you think, guys?

I would agree with that.

@Dr Dengar wrote:
Now about the white arm Lobot. Do I understand it correctly when you link this figure to a factory error?

Yes, and I may be in the minority with this opinion, but I consider this figure a factory error which has been made consistently and therefore IMO it is a variant.

Whether the arms were moulded in the wrong colour during production or whether they were made from a dodgy batch of plastic that was unstable leading to degradation or discolouration, both are factory errors. I think this is further backed up by the fact that this rare variation is most often found effecting just one arm (although there have been a couple of cases with two white arms). It would be very unusual for the environmental factors that initiate or speed up the transformation to only effect one arm unless there are differences in the composition of the plastics.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:36 am

@olisuds wrote:


Whether the arms were moulded in the wrong colour during production or whether they were made from a dodgy batch of plastic that was unstable leading to degradation or discolouration, both are factory errors. I think this is further backed up by the fact that this rare variation is most often found effecting just one arm (although there have been a couple of cases with two white arms). It would be very unusual for the environmental factors that initiate or speed up the transformation to only effect one arm unless there are differences in the composition of the plastics.

If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:42 am

First, nice to see you back Oli.

The way I see it, you cant have both. Either its a factory error from a bad batch to cause it to deteriate or its a variant. And if its deteriation, then its not a variant. Factory errors like that arent considered a variant. If it was meant to be that way when it left the factory, yes its a variant. But I dont think that the white arms were meant to be that way. And because its found MOC or bagged, doesnt mean it left the factory that way. Look at the Chewys that are turning that are MOC. Those didnt leave the factory looking like that. Just like the bagged AT AT Drivers Frank posted, they werent meant to look like that either. Thats one thing some people cant understand, not everything is a variant just because it looks different. Now if it was a production specified change, then yes, its a variant. But I seriously dont think that 3/4 way through production they decided to make the arms white instead for what ever reason. I think it was less pigment or lesser quality pigment mixed in the plastic to make it like that over the years.

This is the main thing I think why this thread was started, to answer alot of those questions. And to get more info out there on whats what so people wont be screwed with buying all these so-called variants that pops up everyday on Ebay. 99.9% of the lurkers on any forum are those looking for info like that to use on Ebay. Thats why when word hits the streets a new "variant" is found, you'll see 100's of them pop up all of a sudden on there. And then those who dont use forums like here or the others will get taken to the cleaners because they dont know better.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:47 am

@snaggletooth wrote:
If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:58 am

@Chris_J wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.

If he can be found with the same COO position and has the same sculpt then he's made from the same mold IMO.
If he can be found with that specific COO but he's not discoloured limbs then this would be a variant.
If he can only be found with the white arms with that specific COO and Sculpt then still a variant IMO

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:16 am

I agree with the first one, but not so much with the next two because they are the same but worded differently. That figure can probally be found with the same COO as one without the white arms. And if it can be, then it would be discolored or deteriated. But how can you tell if it is or isnt discolored when theres only a hand full of them turn up? And if they pop up on other COO molds, then its def deteriation/discoloration. Right now, until more show up or it can be determined as a factory planed variant, all it is is discolored. Hate to bust the variant collectors bubbles. Now if they have been turning up for the past 6-7 years, I might think a bit more on it. But they have just been popping up recently, so Im not one bit convinced they are variants by the true meaning of a variant.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:25 am

@Chris_J wrote:
First, nice to see you back Oli.

The way I see it, you cant have both. Either its a factory error from a bad batch to cause it to deteriate or its a variant. And if its deteriation, then its not a variant. Factory errors like that arent considered a variant. If it was meant to be that way when it left the factory, yes its a variant. But I dont think that the white arms were meant to be that way. And because its found MOC or bagged, doesnt mean it left the factory that way. Look at the Chewys that are turning that are MOC. Those didnt leave the factory looking like that. Just like the bagged AT AT Drivers Frank posted, they werent meant to look like that either. Thats one thing some people cant understand, not everything is a variant just because it looks different. Now if it was a production specified change, then yes, its a variant. But I seriously dont think that 3/4 way through production they decided to make the arms white instead for what ever reason. I think it was less pigment or lesser quality pigment mixed in the plastic to make it like that over the years.

This is the main thing I think why this thread was started, to answer alot of those questions. And to get more info out there on whats what so people wont be screwed with buying all these so-called variants that pops up everyday on Ebay. 99.9% of the lurkers on any forum are those looking for info like that to use on Ebay. Thats why when word hits the streets a new "variant" is found, you'll see 100's of them pop up all of a sudden on there. And then those who dont use forums like here or the others will get taken to the cleaners because they dont know better.

Hey Chris, its good to be back with the hardcore variant folks Smile Seems like I've missed out on loads of good stuff. This is a great thread.

I realise my point is quite contentious and I may be in the minority but people have different opinions on what is a variant. Going back to my point earlier that factory errors in other collecting circles are considered variations and therefore I think its fair to apply that theory here too. If a factory error consistently leads to some sort of degradation or discolouration then the result could also be considered part of that variation.

I personally think it was just a dodgy batch of arms that were made white. But I'm just covering myself on both counts Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:27 am

@olisuds wrote:


@Dr Dengar wrote:
Now about the white arm Lobot. Do I understand it correctly when you link this figure to a factory error?

Yes, and I may be in the minority with this opinion, but I consider this figure a factory error which has been made consistently and therefore IMO it is a variant.

Whether the arms were moulded in the wrong colour during production or whether they were made from a dodgy batch of plastic that was unstable leading to degradation or discolouration, both are factory errors. I think this is further backed up by the fact that this rare variation is most often found effecting just one arm (although there have been a couple of cases with two white arms). It would be very unusual for the environmental factors that initiate or speed up the transformation to only effect one arm unless there are differences in the composition of the plastics.

OK I understand your point.

Two options IMO:
1) In case Lobot left the factory with white arms it is a factory error, and the figure should be regarded a true variant.. EDIT: See the added definitions in the 1st post of this thread.
2) But in case Lobot got his present appearance after "ageing" of the paint (yellow -> white) it would be consequent to label the figure a transformant. If the cause is a bad batch of plastic, you might even ask whether this is a true factory error, as the arms were yelow and therefore passed Quality Control in the 80s. Maybe call it a ageing error. Very Happy

EDIT: I was doing shopping in between, and haven't read the posts in between yet.



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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:31 am

@Chris_J wrote:
I agree with the first one, but not so much with the next two because they are the same but worded differently. That figure can probally be found with the same COO as one without the white arms. And if it can be, then it would be discolored or deteriated. But how can you tell if it is or isnt discolored when theres only a hand full of them turn up? And if they pop up on other COO molds, then its def deteriation/discoloration. Right now, until more show up or it can be determined as a factory planed variant, all it is is discolored. Hate to bust the variant collectors bubbles. Now if they have been turning up for the past 6-7 years, I might think a bit more on it. But they have just been popping up recently, so Im not one bit convinced they are variants by the true meaning of a variant.

I totally agree that he's discoloured Chris and won't be adding him to mine but if that's the only way you can find this specific figure then surely he's still a variant. Would be interesting to find out if he does appear with different COO's
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:31 am

@snaggletooth wrote:
@Chris_J wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.

If he can be found with the same COO position and has the same sculpt then he's made from the same mold IMO.
If he can be found with that specific COO but he's not discoloured limbs then this would be a variant.
If he can only be found with the white arms with that specific COO and Sculpt then still a variant IMO


Different batches of plastic can be used with the same mould.

We dont necessarily need to attribute each variation to a specific mould. It can be down to the type of plastic or how it is painted also. Therefore not every variation needs to have a specific COO.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:01 am

@olisuds wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@Chris_J wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.

If he can be found with the same COO position and has the same sculpt then he's made from the same mold IMO.
If he can be found with that specific COO but he's not discoloured limbs then this would be a variant.
If he can only be found with the white arms with that specific COO and Sculpt then still a variant IMO


Different batches of plastic can be used with the same mould.

We dont necessarily need to attribute each variation to a specific mould. It can be down to the type of plastic or how it is painted also. Therefore not every variation needs to have a specific COO.

I realize that Olisuds, If your going to go with them boundaries on your Collection that's fine with me mate but there will be literally thousands.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:02 am

Oli, I agree part way. Some factory errors are variants (wrong limbs, miscards, wrong accessories). But when it comes down to how they are made, I wouldnt classify it as a variant. It all goes back to if it was meant to leave the factory that way then yes. What types of plastic and paint used isnt considered that unless it is a factory made change to change the appearance of the figure. And your right on the second part. Just because it has the same COO, doesnt mean its that COO specific. The molds were used through the life of the figure unless the mold was so worn out they had to make a new one. And each place most likely had their own places to buy their supplies from so the quality of it couldve went either uphill or down. The only real way to find out about the plastic is to have it tested to see what the make up of it is. But then, it might not really determine anything like weighing figures might not tell much. But as for the Lobot, I wouldnt put it in the same catagory as a variant right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:21 am

@snaggletooth wrote:
@olisuds wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@Chris_J wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.

If he can be found with the same COO position and has the same sculpt then he's made from the same mold IMO.
If he can be found with that specific COO but he's not discoloured limbs then this would be a variant.
If he can only be found with the white arms with that specific COO and Sculpt then still a variant IMO


Different batches of plastic can be used with the same mould.

We dont necessarily need to attribute each variation to a specific mould. It can be down to the type of plastic or how it is painted also. Therefore not every variation needs to have a specific COO.

I realize that Olisuds, If your going to go with them boundaries on your Collection that's fine with me mate but there will be literally thousands.

Thats fair enough. There probably are thousands of minor variations, but we are talking about about major/significant variations? What is a major variation and what is not is another matter for debate.

Some are happy to consider Hammerhead eyes, up, down, left, right a variant. Some are happy to consider a slight difference in COO marking or position a variant. I dont consider any of these significant enough to call a variation, but thats just me and other will disagree and have their own personal idea of what a variant is.
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PostSubject: yep-- how bit red snag belt?   Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:58 am

OK how about a Red, snaggletoth red-
I have in my list a White belt and a Silver Belt buckle Var.
I think this may be transformation thru oxidation of the the paint or is it?
it seems the white buckle is rarer.
..... its gonna be a long list of transformational figures..

I think any data or research certainly should emphasize the traits of transformation..
It is interesting I am trying to think any older toys from the 70's to compare the transformation of the Plastics to
but am coming up blank.
partly because- the Kenner figure line was almost the first 3 34" line if figures with an extensive line.
there were Megos before and some Micronauts in japan.
This I guess is kind of the first time toy collectors have had to deal with this..


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Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.

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