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 Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.

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Chris_J
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:52 pm

I would say the white from silver is deteriation (since I still dont like transformants). Yhea, the list of deteriated/discolored figures will be long. But to make it alot easier, like it was said several times already, if it didnt come from the factory that way, its not a true variant. To me, anything that wasnt planned from Kenner doesnt count. Thats why they came up with color charts on what the figures were suppose to look like when finished. These things were never meant to last this long anyway. Kids play with them, get bored and in the trash they go.

As for looking for other vintage lines, most of those were made in harder plastic (limbs, bodies and heads) than SW was. That includes Black Hole, Buck Rogers, and a few others. But if you look at the dolls Mego made for the Superhero line, some of those are turning. Thats how they got the zombie figures of them thats still in the box or on card.

As for data or research on how the figures deteriate, how would you do it? Kinda hard to do it on 30+ year old figures thats already keen to changing or already have. The thing Im doing is close to that, but all its going to do is tell you how one figure changes over a period of time. To have decent data for that, you would have to do multiples of figures to prove that point. And to me, theres no need in destroying that many figures to make a point. Then you would really need to be in a lab to do it to have accurate counts on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:12 am

Both my Red Snaggletooth have a white belt buckle. Only my blue snaggletooth has a silver belt buckle

Hey, this might be a silly question, but is the silver paint on the red snaggletooth the same as the paint on the blue snaggletooth belt? If so and your theory of white being oxidised silver paint, then why are there no Blue Snaggletooths with white boots out there? Smile

Neonboy wrote:
OK how about a Red, snaggletoth red-
I have in my list a White belt and a Silver Belt buckle Var.
I think this may be transformation thru oxidation of the the paint or is it?
it seems the white buckle is rarer.
..... its gonna be a long list of transformational figures..

I think any data or research certainly should emphasize the traits of transformation..
It is interesting I am trying to think any older toys from the 70's to compare the transformation of the Plastics to
but am coming up blank.
partly because- the Kenner figure line was almost the first 3 34" line if figures with an extensive line.
there were Megos before and some Micronauts in japan.
This I guess is kind of the first time toy collectors have had to deal with this..


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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:59 am

olisuds wrote:

Hey, this might be a silly question, but is the silver paint on the red snaggletooth the same as the paint on the blue snaggletooth belt? If so and your theory of white being oxidised silver paint, then why are there no Blue Snaggletooths with white boots out there? Smile


There are no silly questions, only silly answers. Very Happy

I have never seen a red Snaggletooth wiith a silver buckle either.

I checked the bay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage&_sacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&_odkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage+silver&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I didn't see any. Maybe I missed it?

Neonboy: Can you post some pics please, would be interesting to see both variants side by side.






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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:18 am

Isnt this one silver? Unless its just the picture the seller took or Im just seeing things in my old age. Or another thing, repainted, silver instead of white. EDIT: now that Im more awake and looked at the picture closer, it is white.




Last edited by Chris_J on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:39 am

Chris_J wrote:
Isnt this one silver? Unless its just the picture the seller took or Im just seeing things in my old age. Or another thing, repainted, silver instead of white.


Honestly I couldn't tell whether this is white or silver paint which reflects. Probably you are right Chris, it is something age related. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:56 am

Sure take a stab at the guy with the walker. lol! Ill come hunt you down with my cane and make you drink my prune juice. affraid
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PostSubject: silver and white red snag buckle    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:15 pm

Dr Dengar wrote:
olisuds wrote:

Hey, this might be a silly question, but is the silver paint on the red snaggletooth the same as the paint on the blue snaggletooth belt? If so and your theory of white being oxidised silver paint, then why are there no Blue Snaggletooths with white boots out there? Smile


There are no silly questions, only silly answers. Very Happy

I have never seen a red Snaggletooth wiith a silver buckle either.

I checked the bay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage&_sacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&_odkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage+silver&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I didn't see any. Maybe I missed it?

Neonboy: Can you post some pics please, would be interesting to see both variants side by side.

Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucketalt="Photobucket">
this is not a once shot deal I have seen many..
Photobucket
from my guide app I am building for Ipad- Currently on my touch.
best
robert

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:23 pm

Chris_J wrote:
Isnt this one silver? Unless its just the picture the seller took or Im just seeing things in my old age. Or another thing, repainted, silver instead of white. EDIT: now that Im more awake and looked at the picture closer, it is white.




Chris- Did Walrusman and Greedo get in a fight?? one black eye and missing head gear.. LOL
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Dr Dengar
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:28 pm

Thanks Robert! Very Happy

I think there are examples of gold paint that oxidizes into brown (Bespin Guard, Leia Bespin) but I don't know of any examples of silver paint oxidizing into white. I would silver to turn into black when it oxidizes. scratch

So this might be a true variant IMO.

BTW: That guide app is going to look great!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:55 pm

Robert the guide app. layout is fantastic.
There does seem to be belt colour differences

HK silver, HK white, no COO light head, no COO dark head
note painted vs unpainted cuffs on the HKs- like yours? I also am unsure if there are 2 different no COOs, light vs darker grey head. ( dark grey has 'PBP smell' )



http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8262&hilit=buckle
another white vs silver discussion
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:15 pm

Like Dr Dengar I have never heard of silver paint turning white.

Could the silver buckle be a paint opt used on figures for US distribution? as it would seem that it is common in the US while the white is rare.

I have seen a number of red snags in the UK (inc. painted & unpainted cuffs), all with white buckles. This would appear to be the case for other members from the UK/Europe. This could support the idea that the silver buckle was a US release.

Has anyone seen a Snag on a Palitoy or other European card with a silver buckle?

I am convinced the buckles on the figures I have were intentionally painted white and this colour is not a product of chemical change.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:06 pm

Like to add this Discolaration/Transformant figure to the
growing list.it's a 3line coo luke

second pic you can still see the degredation







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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:26 pm

It's always good to see figures in the process of change so that we have evidence for degredation as opposed to a 'true' variant.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:45 pm



I revised the 1st post of this thread a little bit and added some definitions which might be helpful in (future) discussions.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:14 pm

Dr Dengar wrote:


Look at the left prune Face below. The green paint of the legs is composed of yellow and blue pigments. The yellow pigments have degraded more over the course of time. We see two things: the green is shifted to blue (less yellow), and the colour is less intense (faded).



Now how to explain the mixed limbs Chewbacca below?


Simply. Very Happy. Different pigments in the paint are expected to have a different vulnerability towards light induced and/or chemical degradation, two processes which can result in a color shift during time (here brown to green as the red pigment decays). Assuming the same light exposure during time (as is the case in the MOC), the extent to which a pigment is prone to degradation depends on the chemical structure of the pigment and the direct chemical ''environment'' which can accelerate reactions and therefore makes things worse. Think for instance about the concentration of neighboring plastifiers, or flame retardants (producing free radicals, chemically highly reactive species) within the plastic. Different batches of plastic might have slightly different compositions, and therefore the colour shift might process at different speeds.
In case you would mix up the limbs from two different batches (which might be common practice in the Kenner factories) you could end up with the mixed green/brown limbed Chewie.
Same story for other figures with different coloured limbs. Also be aware that limbs and torsos are made from different plastics and hence may discolour differently.


Yellowing

Yellowing is something else then discoloration. It is caused by chemical oxidation reactions within the plastic (not the pigments!), either spontaneously or initiated by visible/UV light or heat. And once started probably accelerated by temperature fluctuations and humidity. To make a long story short, in the end you have more molecules in the plastic which absorb blue light giving the plastic a yellow appearance. The chemical reaction can even proceed further, meaning that in the end plastics can even turn pink.


I've just reread the first page and these couple of things are confusing, both the chewy and proonface are yellowed plastic and not discolored paint.

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:25 pm

Marco, I take it the old term of deteriated is no longer being used? Really? I think thats going to be confusing later on down the line, but thats just me, I guess. Call me old fashioned, but why fix something when its not even broke?
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:49 pm

Chris_J wrote:
Marco, I take it the old term of deteriated is no longer being used? Really? I think thats going to be confusing later on down the line, but thats just me, I guess. Call me old fashioned, but why fix something when its not even broke?

I know you don't like the term transformant, Chris. So just don't use it. Very Happy

Dr Dengar wrote:


Then we can call the rest something else. You name it: degraded figures, degradants, mutants, transformants. Personally I like the term 'transformant', I explain why:

I see no harm in using it.

I am not afraid of ebay sellers who will easily adapt the term to boost their sales. "Tan limbed Klaatu Transformant for only $45,-".
And if they do, potential buyers can at least look up what a transformant is, basically just a discolored/yellowed figure.



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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:08 pm

snaggletooth wrote:


I've just reread the first page and these couple of things are confusing, both the chewy and proonface are yellowed plastic and not discolored paint.



Where did you read that? scratch

If it would be yellowing, Prune Face's pants would turn yellow green instead of blue green.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:23 pm

I dont use it nor will I start to. But what Im getting at is when someone comes in and sees a new term like that its confusing. I mentioned it before about that. Its like when you see a duck and been calling it a duck, someone comes around and wants to start calling it a goose. Someone new comes along and thinks "Wait, I always called it a duck, so its really a goose?" Its just like these wanting to classify bootlegs a totally different way than they have been for the last 20 years. Why confuse the masses when you dont have to? If you have to use it, why not do it like you were before, deteriated/transforments.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:45 pm

So confused scratch unsure
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:50 pm

Dr Dengar wrote:
snaggletooth wrote:


I've just reread the first page and these couple of things are confusing, both the chewy and proonface are yellowed plastic and not discolored paint.



Where did you read that? scratch

If it would be yellowing, Prune Face's pants would turn yellow green instead of blue green.

Maybe yellowing is the wrong word to Marco but Proonface's legs are molded in green plastic and not painted. That's the same type of discouloration as the Stormtrooper turning yellow is it not?
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:54 pm

Chris_J wrote:
I dont use it nor will I start to. But what Im getting at is when someone comes in and sees a new term like that its confusing. I mentioned it before about that. Its like when you see a duck and been calling it a duck, someone comes around and wants to start calling it a goose. Someone new comes along and thinks "Wait, I always called it a duck, so its really a goose?" Its just like these wanting to classify bootlegs a totally different way than they have been for the last 20 years. Why confuse the masses when you dont have to? If you have to use it, why not do it like you were before, deteriated/transforments.

People who know what a duck is, might learn to appreciate it and even give it a name, Donald or Daisy come to mind. There is no harm in doing so, as long as everybody knows they are ducks.

From the turbulent TIG period just prior to this thread, I had the impression many hadn't even seen a duck once. I think we should take some effort to explain ducks instead of their names. And don't worry, nobody calls a duck Gus. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:59 pm

snaggletooth wrote:


Maybe yellowing is the wrong word to Marco but Proonface's legs are molded in green plastic and not painted. That's the same type of discouloration as the Stormtrooper turning yellow is it not?

True, I meant the green paint mixed within the plastic. Is paint the wrong word in this case? If it is unclear, how to describe it better?
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:02 pm

Dr Dengar wrote:
snaggletooth wrote:


Maybe yellowing is the wrong word to Marco but Proonface's legs are molded in green plastic and not painted. That's the same type of discouloration as the Stormtrooper turning yellow is it not?

True, I meant the green paint mixed within the plastic. Is paint the wrong word in this case? If it is unclear, how to describe it better?

How about 'pigments' or 'colouring agents'?
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:26 pm

I added the underlined text on the 1st page. Is this more clear now?

Dr Dengar wrote:

Look at the left prune Face below. The green paint which is mixed within the plastic of the legs, is composed of yellow and blue pigments. The yellow pigments have degraded more over the course of time. We see two things: the green is shifted to blue (less yellow), and the colour is less intense (faded).

------------------------------------

snaggletooth wrote:

Maybe yellowing is the wrong word to Marco but Proonface's legs are molded in green plastic and not painted. That's the same type of discouloration as the Stormtrooper turning yellow is it not?

No it is not. Very Happy I added some underlined text as well, to hopefully make it more clear.

Dr Dengar wrote:


Yellowing is something else then discoloration. It is caused by chemical oxidation reactions within the plastic (not the pigments within the plastic!), either spontaneously or initiated by visible/UV light or heat. And once started probably accelerated by temperature fluctuations and humidity. To make a long story short, in the end you have more molecules in the plastic which absorb blue light giving the plastic a yellow appearance. The chemical reaction can even proceed further, meaning that in the end plastics can even turn pink.

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