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 Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.

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Capetown
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:47 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:
Mark, Emiel: I understand what you mean, and I hope we can keep discussions about discolored figures in check indy from now on.

It's not only that, but the whole Imperial Variant Gunnery bit that puts me off.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:19 am

@Capetown wrote:
@Dr Dengar wrote:
Mark, Emiel: I understand what you mean, and I hope we can keep discussions about discolored figures in check indy from now on.

It's not only that, but the whole Imperial Variant Gunnery bit that puts me off.

I just read this thread been trying to catch up a bit after been out of the game really over the last 6 months and its been an interesting thread Smile

What ill add though is the TIG Forum is a pure Vintage Star Wars Forum i.e its here to discuss all aspects of Vintage Collecting be it, MOC, loose, variants, pre production, odd ball / misc vintage items, Ships, playsets, mini rigs, die casts, focus collecting, collecting runs, etc etc the list is endless thats why I love this hobby the sheer volume of different facets to vintage collecting is whats always keep me going as theres always something to learn Smile

Just to add if variants arent your thing then feel free to start threads about what is your vintage area i know i for one always enjoy reading about where people are at in the different areas of vintage collecting they have took up and for me that includes variant collecting as well.

Cheers Jay - Whos gonna do some research on Die Casts as they are my Vintage thing Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:26 pm

Jay, I understand what your saying. I know I dont speak for everybody, but the thing is that when someone ask a question like "What is this?" and they get an answer, they want to come back with a snappy response. Thats what turns alot of people off and causes some to respond back in kind and most not respond at all. Im all for learning something new, but when theres alot of mis-information flying out there and no one helps to get the correct info out there, whats going to happen to the next gen of new guys coming in? They are going to see the info out there, both good and bad, and wont know nothing. Take the weapons guide for instance. If everybody didnt pitch in to make it the most comprehensive guide out there, there would still be alot of peolpe getting bit by repros. And 99% of the weapon questions I see come up now, someone is always pointing the OP to the guide because they know how up to date it is. And as you know, the repros are starting to get damn good and close to the originals. What would happen if that info didnt get out there to the public and alot of newer guys thought they were legit? It would lead to alot more mis-informed collectors out there.

As for variant threads, Im going to use 2 of curch's threads. Joe, this is not meant as disrespect to you. Im just using your 2 threads as an example, so apologies if it seems that way. First one is his COO thread. The poor guy was more confused by the third page than he was when he asked the question. All he wanted to know is if there was a way to tell what COO went to which card or if it was possible. Before it was over with, it turned into anything but what he was wanting to know, hence his total confusion to whats going on. A simple answer of its hard to determine what COO came from which card unless it came straight from the card itself wouldve helped him out alot more in his question. But instead it went way off track into some other area. This is his own words by page 3.

"I think I am more confused now than when I first started this thread All I basically wanted to know is what I had and what kind of card/country it came from. The Ledy stuff really interests me. Stuff is very mysterious. And before I started moving some of my vintage I really wanted to know if I possibly had some. Now we have all this other stuff in the mix."

Thats why I would love to see Wolff finish his COO guide. It would help out guys like Joe with questions like that. And it would also help out in the long run for more established collectors to understand what they have and where it came from. I know I wish the guide was up and running before I sold off a huge chunk of my collection to The Earth a few years back.

The second one is his Stormie thread. The one thing that couldve saved him alot of time is researching up on them, like Wolff said. The time it took him to write up the post, take pix, and post them, he couldve spent a fraction of the time looking into old threads to find out the info he was looking for. It wouldve been no longer than 2-3 minutes compared to how long it took him to make his post. Even with the new search function on RS it takes less time now to find an old thread to dig up the info thats out there. And thats where I agree with the others. Its got out of hand recently. It seems that some dont want to take the few minutes it takes to go back and read old posts to help them along with what they are collecting. I even go back and re-read old posts to help me answer questions people have because I know I was in their shoes at one time. The biggest thing I was always told was to research up on what your collecting when I started on RS. Thats why places like here, RS, SWFUK, and SWCA are there, so people can go back to look up items they are interested in and help educate themselves in the areas they collect. Like a few weeks ago, me and Tim was talking about coins in chat and I asked him a question. He gave me the link to the coin section on SWCA so I can go back and read up on it. Which I did and now got a better understanding in whats out there. Even though I've read it once before, re-reading it help out on what I wanted to know. But the thing is, even if you give some some links to read, they act like thats too much for them to do. I know it sux to find out you got damaged items, Ive been there, done that. But when you try to help out and explain things to some and you get response like this, (this is not from curch by the way. )

"A lot of others are convinced that it is indeed a simple case of degradation or discolouration over time, but I still feel that explanation is a little strange as it just does not taste right if you get me, you know when you just have the feeling something is not right?."

what can you do? They already got a mind set that no matter what you tell them, your still going to be wrong because they know your answer is wrong. Things like that lead to all kinds of mis-information and misguided collectors. Like I said, I know I was one of those at one time. But with doing research and homework on what I was collecting lead me to the right info on what I had. No matter how long you've been collecting, whether its 2 years or 20 years, new info comes out to help you along with your collection. Sure, maybe 10-15 years down the line info might come out to prove us all wrong that these discolored or degraded figures are really in fact variants. But until that time comes, thats all they are is discolored and deteriated figures because thats what the proof now is showing them as. But all in all, my point is that a little research into your area of collecting will save alot of headaches and time. If that can be done, alot of the newer guys will be able to understand alot better on what they are collecting. But they have to want to learn. Cant walk until you learn to crawl.

Ill stop here cause my secretary is screaming something about overtime. Have no clue what shes talking about. Razz If I seem out of line and snobby (or use what ever you want in there Laughing ) with this, I apologize. But I just wanted to get my point of how I see things and how things are going from my point of view. And if I disrespected anybody from what I said, it wasnt meant that way at all. So my apologize to anyone who feels that way.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:51 pm

Where is the I like it button??? Very Happy

The next problem, and this one wasnt mentioned before, is:
Lots of people think they could have find rare, searched for stuff by accident!

Well, of course this can happen! But lets talk reality:

To find a figure per accident in another country compared to where it was produced:

- Poch: zero, zero, zero %
- PBP (and I mean only the PBP figures that only appereared in spain, not greedo, snag, etc) max. 0,001% (I found my red harnes 4-lom in GB)
- Meccano figures (late french trilogo figures) normally 0%, but there is case of 2 RS found in Germany!

Talking about Poch, PBP and Meccano you will win the lottery twice before you find one in the US, or buy thousands of figures from one-character to at least have...NONE!! LOL

- LL: very rare in US besides MIM figures....Ill give it a chance from 1: 10.000. More often some characters are found in europe mainly spain because some of them released on PBP cards! But even in Spain these are rare!
- MIM: very often found in US and thats why the prices are pretty low. You can get nearyl every MIM card MOC for 40-50 USD! Wink
- Glasslite: I never heard of sth found in the US...and of yourse not in europe!
- Takara: Japan marked figures.....I dont believe you will ever find ONE!

The term rare is used far too often! A Han molded legs is simply not rare, wether is a Blue Snag or a VC Jawa, or a DT Luke! Thats kindergarden...you can get them every week!

Some Ledys, some PBP and POCh and some Meccano stuff you can not get for years even if you offer 500 bucks for each!

I dont know how to get this in peoples heads. But the chances to find a real LL figure (and thats the most frequent question and I dont mean MIM) in the US is very very very low! And of course Ledy figures are only very expensive if they have the complete Ledy accesorries!!

So go for it...try your luck! But if you have some loose...sell the doubles and discolored figures and use the money to buy the real stuff! Wink...from trustfull mexican sellers here in the forum Wink

...just my 2 cents

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:38 am







edit: I now have one Suspect


Last edited by aussiejames on Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:59 am

Shocked Cool!! He looks like HULK's skinnier and less angrier brother.

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:42 am

ET phone home. Very Happy Poor Hammerhead must have ate something that didnt agree with him in the Cantina. lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:49 am

Greedohead!!!

He must be worth more than 1000$. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:51 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:
Greedohead!!!

He must be worth more than 1000$. Very Happy

dont laugh...I saw similar ones go for 150! Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:01 pm

Just ask the "archive man"
Just kidding...I´m not the archive man, but I am keeping a lot of ebay auctions since the last years.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:32 pm

nonono...you ARE the archiveman!! So I did probably rember the euro price on this?? Anyway...crazy!!
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:36 am

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AFA-85-CHEWBACCA-GREEN-CROSSBOW-GREEN-POUCH-Vintage-Star-Wars-Action-Figure-/160672355519?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2568d194bf






Edit by Dr D: Picture added.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:03 am

@aussiejames wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AFA-85-CHEWBACCA-GREEN-CROSSBOW-GREEN-POUCH-Vintage-Star-Wars-Action-Figure-/160672355519?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2568d194bf

well there are more greenish pouchs on some Chewbacca coos (no discoloration). But these are of course not really green...the only have a greenish look compared to more reddish pouches...this is about nuances. Its difficult to say on this pic (green background) if this one has discolored pouch or if its just a not so well choosen describtion.

Again...pouch colors vary and go with certain variants or coos!
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:11 am

Luke Bespin with olive green boots, next to his twin brother with normal boots.

My verdict: discoloration!

Do you agree?



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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:31 am



Family picture. From left to right:
A) Light brown cape
B) Dark brown cape (also a bit longer)
C) Orange cape
D) Rose cape



I think the different cape colours are due to discoloration, especially after reading the thread below.

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t3201-orange-cape-squid-head-variation-discolouration-or-fake?highlight=orange+cape

My orange cape and rose cape Squids are not Ledy figures ruling out the possibility of being faded burgundy Squids.

So probably these capes are the result of normal brown capes that discolored.

What do you think guys?



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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:38 am

1.Imo true variant...have also a pic of a MOC..even if its not a true proof!

2. Fake...its a colored/dyed cape

3. The long "orange" cape is not really orange and IMO real!
As you can spot wether color nor the texture of the cape does match the ones in the thread you mentioned. These are fakes IMO too!

4. Also fake/discolored!
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:55 pm

Hi all,
First,Sorry for my poor english , i will try to expalin the better i can Smile

These are my thoughts , i dont want to convince anybody about the info bellow,and honesty i dont care too much if people are agree or disagree with me.This is some info to take in account , maybe i am grong, but i thought is interesting talking about discoloration...

As Wolff, i am art restorer and after 14 years looking/dealing with old paints and materials i think i have "good eye" for the colours, paint ,paint tecniques and its degradation.

In the POCH/PBP thread we are talking about faded/variant PBP figures , so i thought will be better to reply here...
i recently discovered some of the called "pale face" PBP with a very good pink/flesh face, untill this i didnt belived they were faded figures but after found some examples i do not believe in the "pale faces/hads"figures anymore.
i am not meaning pink as the same colour that we can found in the French Meccano Luke hoth or the Euro/PBP Pink Han hoth, the colour i mean is more like "flesh pink" and not "gum pink"

@mike-skywalker wrote:
Hey Wolff...you forgot to mention, that the french PBP/Meccano (Trilogo card) is always pink faced....and the other one (ROTJ PBP card) is always pale.


To me is not the same pink colour....Here you are a comprison shot with the EURO/PBP han hoth pink face


@wbobafett wrote:
Its the same on all those figures: the faces can vary! the Luke Hoth pale face is for 1000% NOT faded Javi! There is only different faces on him like on Han Hoth!

There even now popped up a Rebel Soldier darkbrown jacket with pink face on a PBP ROTJ card!

If you have a closer look on all existing Han Hoth on PBP ROTJ card you will notice that only two of them have the pale face and the violett jacket...the other three have white with pink and normal jacket....its a madhouse!

In fact you can already see in ulis guide that there is the pale face Luke Hoths and some with shlightly pink on it. The pink contingent can vary very much like on the Tri/Pal Han Hoth and the PBP pale/pink Luke Xwing!

Again here, to me the pink contingent can vary , ofcourse, but this is due to the pass of time, i mean discoloration.
Some of the PBP figures were spryed with a little more paint over hands and face , those are the ones wich have more flesh face IMO.
Where the paint is thinner,becomes faded,while in the zones where the paint is thicker the paint is in better condition.Example:
Partial Faded luke hoth on the rigth( the one on the left have sligth discoloration aswell)


Same in my PBP carded Luke hoth, have complet faded face EVEN IN CARD!!in the card the figures can be degarded too, i think people didnt
realized on this yet Sad ,i mean, i Carded chewie with green limbs dont proof that the green limbs are not discoloration...


@mike-skywalker wrote:
I don´t believe the pale face Luke is a faded pink face. That would mean every pale face like Han Hoth, AT-AT Commander, Rebel Soldier was originally a pink face. I guess 1 of thousand Dengars is a pink face. That means 999 from 1000 are faded.
The pale and pink face are different spry ops. The fale faces were first sprayed white with slightly pink over it and the pink faces are sprayed only in pink.

To me the pale faces are faded pink faces,or do you think that in the pantone sheet provided by Kenner to the PBP factory, saying:"white hands and faces instead of pink, please "Is the same issue like in the metallic hair colour or the meatallic pounch of chewie,IMO,i think Kenner´s designers didnt thought on a Metallis hairs Smile

BTW Mirco,IMHO is hard to think that at the PBP factory The pale faces were first sprayed white and after that with slightly pink over it ... scratch scratch
Spryed twice the faces and hands on PBP figures dont have any sense, as the fact that there is no other Vintage figure painted with that tecnique,or i am grong on this too??i am really not sure on this...

@javiswspain wrote:
PBP Luke Hoth and Rebel Soldier Hoth Dark Brown "UNDEGRADED"figures

@wbobafett wrote:
Another note:

Your believed faded Rebel Soldier with white/creme face has the same color as some Dengars!

Also I disbelieve you theorie on the CCP! There is tons of white faced CCPS and only 5 or 6 known pink faces! the point is: They are wether pick or white...there is no "stage" known with half "discolored" face....strange or?

Its unlikely all pale face CCP are disoclored...would be the same as all Tri Dengars would be disolored IMO!


I dont want to give ya a hard time Javi...or argue...or want to be the better "expert"...its just that I dont see it mate!

You meant this CCP partial faded? in this picts you can see :CCP pale/Faded face on the left,partial faded on the middle and the pink CCPon the right



I remmeber Sergio telling me that one of his Pink CCP PBP was turned to pale face just displaying it for a months...The PBP paint is very sensitive to the sun light IMO,thats why ALL my POCH/PBP figures are stored in the dark Cool and not displayed...

Here you are an other partial faded figure:
Mines Han´s PBP ...All of them with faded hands but one....



Hope this help.
Thanks
Javi





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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:11 pm

Shall I?? There is tons of examples and tons of stuff I could reply on that Javi.....but Im tired of argueing. Thats why I just say: Everything who wants can go with it! I dont believe it. I have the examples here and I also have a very good eye for colors as mentioned.

Short notes:

1. Color would never fade first on the side of the nose and later on the top of the nose! Its like getting a sunburn first behind the ears.

2. The ccps can not be compared: the left one I never saw before and he could be faded. The middle one is the normal pale face. These have (mine both) sprayed white over pink. The pink one is the other way around!!

3. We have so many different faces on Dengar, Han hoth, RS, etc. that just shows that there was quite a varity in production. Some Lukes have the face sprayed over with flesh, some only less and some not.....end of story to me!

edit: Btw in addition that would mean that all 102.561 found pale face Dengars are faded.....that must be a joke! Creme faces do exist! There is no way around! Other face colors do also exist, but in this time of prodcution you can forget thinking in catergories or "this-variant-has-to-look-like-this" thinking.
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:21 pm

Look you answered you own question with this picture:



What you see on the "pink face" Han?? You see there is white underneath it...you can see the white around the "border of the face! So would you now say its faded on the outside/the white parts?? No...there is just not pink sprayed overall the face. And on Han Hoth with have all stages: lots of pink, middle pink, less pink!. These faces even can be nearly white, not because of discoloration, because its only very less pink sprayed on the white face.

And its exactly the same on the Luke hoth! You have the creme face and a felsh tone sprayed over it...some more, some less and some maybe even forgotten!

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:01 pm

I think it's incredibly difficult to conclude whether some of these figures are definitely discoloured or not & I don't think it's wise to be too reactionary and label every pale face, slightly lighter torso, slightly darker cape as discolouration. However sometimes discolouration is pretty obvious, green limb Chewies, yellow Stormies etc.

Back when I was actively seeking out these PBP or PBP/Tri figures the theory on the face colours was simply that whoever spray painted them wasn't too concerned getting a perfect pink colour every time. Sometimes the mix of paint in his spray was a bit white, other times it was too pink, sometimes it was raspberry ripple mmmm Wink resulting in part white part pink faces. Having said that I think its possible a bit of fading is going on in some cases as well as pale paint to start with.

As for green boots, yep. Squid capes, different browns could be different batches of material (although I'm a little worried my Ledy Luke Jedi cape is changing colour as it's getting old!) & the pinker Squidhead cape, maybe! (maybe not) Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:41 pm

What about the Tusken Raider below??

Both have identical Hong Kong COO's.......Faded brown hands and belt?? Or legite variant?

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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:51 pm

I count that one ( not saying it isn't a factory batch mistake)
[img][/img]
which leg marking(s) do they have?
edit: my light brown vesrion is '2'
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:38 am

@aussiejames wrote:
I count that one ( not saying it isn't a factory batch mistake)

which leg marking(s) do they have?
edit: my light brown vesrion is '2'


Hi AJ, both Raiders have COO #2
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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:27 am






C-3PO Removable limbs. Golden and silver finish (right figure). Both have the same COO with the raised bar (COO no. 1 in Wolff''s guide).

I can understand a silver Death Star Droid turning into a golden one bacause of yellowing of the varnish used (same for the golden dome R2).

But how to explain this? Degradation/Bleaching of the gold paint? Or a thinner layer op paint applied making it appear less golden?






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PostSubject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Discolored Figures But Were Afraid to Ask.    Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:43 am

There is a 'freaky' gold version

& perhaps the plastic colour itself can affect the end result of the gold metallization
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The Imperial Gunnery Forum :: Vintage Star Wars Chat
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