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 Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016

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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28, 2013 8:47 am

Steve...I already wrote you via email and over RS....but I gladly do it again:

This piece totally fits in your collection. A real great and interesting piece!! I just love it and Im happy it went into your collection!! cheers cheers

All the best my friend!

Regards

Wolff
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The_Dark_Artist
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28, 2013 11:26 am

Jason, great questions. I would have to ask Tracey more about this find. He just stated it was found by Jordan that came from a former Kenner Employee. The find may have included internal first shots from all the first 12. Tracey purchased 7 of the group from Jordan back then... The Han Solo looks like the one in Chris Prince's collection (from details, missing paint in the hair), but I may be wrong? Cool pieces though. Don't know if I ever saw that Luke FB before?
As for the "internal" versus "regular" first shots is exactly what you stated above. Here is a quote from Bill McBride that may help explain better then I can....
The Internal pieces are just that; made in house at Kenner from
> low yield molds. They were hand assembled, painted, etc. they usually
> have prototype accessories as well. These
> were used for everything from engineering, to examples like my MT
> Vader that were used
> for photography work, concepts, promotional work etc. An IFS is as
> close as you can get to a hardcopy.

And thank you Wolff for the kind words my friend : )
-Steve
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28, 2013 11:56 am

@aussiejames wrote:
Must be time for a group shot Wink

BTW: I second that Very Happy Very Happy Razz Razz

Seriously....itz is about time my friend!! Wink
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The_Dark_Artist
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28, 2013 4:16 pm

I'm going to work on that group shot : ) But my display is currently being boxed up for a move. I should be able to take a shot of them all together regardless though : ) Coming soon...

Also, Jason, Chris P. wrote and said


Hey Steve,

The Han came in a batch of first shots that Bill Wills and Tracey Hamilton picked up thru Jordan over 10 years ago (around 2001). They came from an ex-Kenner employee named Tom Troy. Sorry, that is all I know about these amazing pieces.

-chris

So if Jordan found them in the 90's, probably later 90's, that would make sense when Bill Wills and Tracey came across them (in 2001). Cool to see the actual Kenner employee's name though...
Hope that helps, -Steve
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The_Dark_Artist
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28, 2013 5:10 pm

A group shot of my collection : )
-Steve
Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 Group_11
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Commander Clint
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28, 2013 5:27 pm

That is a nice looking group. :Drool:

I'm very impressed. :clap:
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29, 2013 3:21 am

KILLER PICTURE!!!!! Shocked Shocked

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

Thanks Steve.....now let me drool again!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29, 2013 4:38 am

A beautifull collection.
I enjoy seeing the history of the figures.
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29, 2013 8:32 am

Thank you guys, that means a great deal to read your comments : )
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29, 2013 10:58 am

Finally a group shot cheers great to see all the pieces together Steve, good job and good luck with the upcoming move Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29, 2013 12:29 pm



WOW, that's a great shot.

Congrats having built up such unique collection, Steve! :clap:
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 31, 2013 8:54 am

Steve,

Very nice group shot. Very Happy


Thank you for the additional information. The name "Tom Troy" and year (2001) is the same name Jordan passed onto me. The "lot" also included a first shot DT Ben and a VC Jawa as well. There happens to be an old FS thread on RS for some of these figures.
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 31, 2013 10:04 am

Thanks Jason, I'm sure that Ben/Jawa was from the same find as my Tusken Raider. That also verifies the time frame Chris Prince talked about. It's nice being able to fill in the gaps.
I appreciate the extra info my friend and Happy Easter : )
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05, 2013 3:28 pm

jawdrop Amazing collection
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05, 2013 3:36 pm

Thank you my friend : )

On a side note... I talked to Chris G about a "internal first shot". Seems he/they came up with that phrase, when in reality, he explained, a "internal first shot" is really a Protomold.
I think some confusion starts when you have a first shot that may have been hand painted, glued together at Kenner. Most would consider that an internal first shot. I guess I'm going to remove the "internal" part when describing my first shot Tusken Raider and just call him a "first shot" that was hand painted, glued together at Kenner. He is not a protomold as he has his hex holes under his feet. I want this thread to be accurate. Also, the information I have documented about each piece is as accurate as I could possibly describe. I am not trying to re-write history, but rather keep the line of provenance truthful and correct.
If anyone has anything to add I would appreciate it... Thanks for reading : )
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2013 4:15 am

Hey Steve, I applaud that decision following your chat with Chris. You can't go wrong by using a simple description, and it will avoid any potential confusion down the line. I'll update the Pre-Prod thread with your new description. Good work once again Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2013 10:24 am

Thanks for understanding Paul.
It can get confusing. I personally thought because the Tusken was hand painted, and glued together at Kenner he would be considered a "Internal First Shot". He was NOT created over seas, sonic welded and machine painted, then sent back to Kenner.
Anyways, (from Chris G.) I learned the phrase "Internal First Shots" was a made up term by Chris G, Ron S ect... to explain what a protomold is. Created with a low yeild mold...
So I guess in the end why couldn't the term "Internal First Shot" still be used? But not to describe a protomold, but rather (as it reads) to explain a "Internal First Shot" (first shots that were hand painted, glued together at Kenner).... It makes more sense doesn't it?
Just my thoughts, -Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2013 11:02 am



Would it be an idea to describe a few definitions of the used terms in the first post of the Preproductions thread?

What is a first shot, internal first shot, engineering pilot, etc.

With some suggested links for further reading.

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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2013 10:48 pm

Post from Chris G

Before we found them, we'd never seen such a "first shot". It was injection molded plastic, so definitely not a hardcopy and since they were prototype aluminum molds that were run in the basement at Kenner, they were made internally so we called them "Internal First Shots" and boy did that name ever stick. Later on one of the Kenner people called the molds "protomolds" so that's more accurate and we started calling the figures "protomolded". And in case it's not clear "low yield" means they can only produce a limited (or low) run (or yield) of parts before the mold wears out. Aluminum is soft and can't handle high volume production before losing fine details so that's why production molds are made of very hard tool steel.

A first shot comes from the steel production mold (literally some of the first shots (or injections) of the mold, but it can be sonic welded and painted at the factory, or hand glued and hand painted at Kenner. Those are additional descriptors to what is still a "first shot". Really, the "first shot" applies to the plastic part itself.

I should also note that a factory paint job is more technically "factory painted" because it's not machine painted. They use metal paint masks and spray paint (with a spray gun) each part by hand. A "hand painted" figure at Kenner is literally painted with a brush by hand as you'd guess. I think back in the day we'd say "machine painted" but one time this Kenner engineer let us watch a video of one of the Chinese factories and it was an army of people doing everything possible by hand. I wish I could have gotten a copy of that because it really goes a long way to understanding the stuff. It wasn't SW toys, it was newer stuff, but the same manufacturing practices applied.

Cheers,



My reply....

Thank you Chris for making a post explaining things. My question relates to the first shots that are hand painted/glued in Kenner, not over seas. Since they are not proto-molds/or in the past called "internal first shots" what can they be called? I understand the plastic is molded as a first shot, but because of the internal/at Kenner hand painting, hand cut capes, and glue/rather then sonic welding they seem different then a first shot assembled/sonic welded/factory painted from over seas.... This seems to be the confusion/debate that keeps coming up in threads. I'd really like to clear that up.
Again, thank you for your time and knowledge regarding this...
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2013 11:21 pm

From Chris G

They're "first shots that are hand painted and glued". Or they may have a "prototype cape". There's just no single phrase that can be applied. First shots by can have a wide array of differences, yet they are still first shots at their core. Additionally, some first shots lack copyright dates, some lack foot holes, some are unpainted, some are molded in non-production colors, some are painted in non-production colors, some have FS weapons that are painted or molded in non-production colors, but in the end they are all still "first shots". It's the added descriptors that give the necessary detail to define what each one is. And it's also the fine details that make some more desirable than others.

Or just have one graded and call it an "AFA80". That's a short phrase that seems to be describing pieces more and more these days.

Cheers,

-chris


From me : )

Thanks Chris. When it comes down to it, they are first shots. I guess I have been doing so much reading and research that it can easily be misunderstood. Your statement above makes complete sense.
I have been trying to keep accurate details/history/provenance of each of my pieces. Trying not to change any of the facts and maybe help others learn about the process of prototypes. I appreciate your great background and it does help not only me, but others to read your words.
On a side note, thanks for your opinion regarding why the first shot Tusken Raider had his thin horns (on his head) changed, because of the risk of scratching, considering they are sharp...
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2013 11:26 pm

I guess in the end, I've tried to be true, clear up misunderstandings over the years regarding this. But now I am going to take Chris Prince's advice and just enjoy them.... : )
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 07, 2013 12:45 pm

I know I commented before but I have to say Steve, you have an outstanding collection. Not only do I get to see awesome pieces but everytime I check it out I learn something new about the production process. Truly amazing.

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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 07, 2013 1:03 pm

Thank you my friend : )
I thought it was important to post the talk Chris G and I had. I think he cleared up some misunderstandings on what some may perceive as an Internal First Shot/Proto-Mold.
It makes much better sense to me now. I want to be very careful with my wording and descriptions, so that I don't change any of the truth or history. So having this talk helps keep the facts straight : )
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22, 2013 9:42 pm

Protomold Power Droid added on page 1.
Thanks for looking : )
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016   Concentration On First 12 Pre-production & more 1/2/2016 - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22, 2013 10:23 pm

Steve yet another amazing piece. cheers Congrats. Is this what the lando wax sculpt went in trade for? For sure a good trade and a stunning piece to add to your already fantastic collection.

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