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 THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE

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Dr Dengar
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PostSubject: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:55 pm

****

THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD


Artwork - Ozio




TABLE OF CONTENTS




***


INTRODUCTION

ESB PERIOD: 1981 - 1982

PBP was a toy company that emerged from the merger of three Spanish toy companies in May 1981. The name PBP is derived from its three parent companies, i.e. POCH, Borras, and Palouzieon. The former POCH factory (the first "P" from "PBP") was responsible for releasing the Star Wars 3 3/4" toy line in Spain.


In Spain, the first Star Wars figures were released on ESB 31 backs in 1981. Though 31 different figures were depicted on the back, probably only a few of these were actually released on these cards.

PBP ESB 31 back and examples of carded figures.

Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info

Within one year  after the release of the 31 backs, the ESB 37/41 backs were released. Though the toys were produced by the merged PBP company, the POCH logo was still used on the 31- and 37/41-backs, as well as the boxed toys (X-Wing, Cloud Car, TIE Fighter). This decision was probably marketing driven as POCH was a well established brand for Spanish consumers at that time.


PBP ESB 37/41 back.

Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info


Examples of carded figures on 37/41A backs.

Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info


The 37/41 backs are famous for their great landscape oriented vintage art work at the back. Only 37 different figures were shown, though the numbering went up to 41. The missing figures might be the 4 Cantina aliens which were never released on 37/41 backs.
The 37/41 backs can be subdivided into 37/41 A, B, and C backs, which can be distinguished by details which are visible on the front of the cards. This is very well explained on Wolff’s site here.

The last category of cardbacks in the ESB era were the ESB 45/47 backs, which were released in 1982. In contrast to the 31- and 37/41 backs, these cards did not have a POCH logo on the front anymore. Instead the PBP logo was present on the back.
Hammerhead, Snaggletooth, and Walrusman were first released on 45/47 backs. Probably Greedo as well, but this has not been confirmed sofar.
Late ESB characters as Cloud Car Pilot, Luke Hoth, AT AT Commander (confirmed), and Black Bespin Guard, might also have been released on 45/47 backs. There are even rumours of 4-LOM and TIE Fighter Pilot being released on ESB cards (which card?).


PBP ESB 45/47 back and examples of carded figures.

Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info


ROTJ PERIOD: 1983 - 1985

The ROTJ Period started with the release of ROTJ 65 backs. Some of the figures were produced by PBP. Others were imported from the Far East (e.g. Taiwan) and sealed on cardbacks by PBP. These latter group of figures are not unique for the PBP toy line and will therefore not be covered in this thread.

PBP 65 back (with offer) and examples of carded figures.

Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info]


Interestingly, some figures released by PBP are virtually indistinguishable from their Ledy counterparts (figures and accessories). According to one theory, Lili Ledy exported these figures from Mexico to Spain, where they were subsequently packed onto PBP cards. This seems to be the case for C-3PO, Klaatu, Ben Kenobi, Luke Bespin, R2D2, Yoda. Maybe Weequay as well. However, sofar there has been no proof that Mexican figures were exported directly to Spain. Maybe, PBP received these figures via the main Palitoy warehouse in the UK.



***



PBP FIGURE CATEGORIES (WORKING THEORY)


The table below gives an overview of the different figure categories which were released by PBP. Personally, by thinking along these categories, it makes it easier to understand the different PBP figures which are out there, and hopefully it can also help other collectors. Just keep in mind it is still a working theory based upon what I read in discussions mixed with some of my own ideas. Like with every theory various aspects of it it still need to be verified by sound evidence. Please challenge this theory, so it can be improved.





PBP CLASS I ("Pure POCH")

  • Class I figures were composed of unpainted overstock parts which were imported from Asian (Hong Kong) factories. The parts were painted by PBP and subsequently welded. PBP did not produce Class I figures themselves by plastic injection molding.
  • Class I figures are recognized by their unique paint apps compared to Kenner figures. Because the Quality Control of the paint process by PBP was poor, this sometimes resulted in sloppy paint jobs.
  • The Quality Control on the PBP welding process was also poor, sometimes resulting in all kinds of factory imperfections: meltmarks, cracks, plastic extrusions.
  • Apart from the figure parts, most (all?) other parts (stickers, capes, weapons, etc.) were imported by PBP as well.
  • It is possible that overstock was imported from different factories (which were using different steel molds), which might explain the different COOs for the same character. In case parts were mixed up, this could even result in figures having two different COOs on the same figure! (see pic below).

    Class I (or II) Dengar having two different HK COOs.

    Source: Kenneth B

  • The fact that the same character can appear with different COOs is an argument, that PBP did not produce these figures themselves. Why would PBP import different (pairs of) steelmoulds? Compare this to Lili Ledy, only importing one pair of steel moulds for most of their figures, resulting in one COO for most figures. Still Lili Ledy was able to produce a large volume of figures with one pair (probably a larger volume than PBP ever released). So it makes not much sense assuming PBP imported different pair of steel moulds to have enough production capacity. PBP probably just imported parts from different factories.  
  • Class I figures were released on 37/41A backs. Maybe 37/41B and -C backs as well? Not sure about 31-backs.
  • Please keep in mind, because Star Wars figures were first released in Spain in 1981, that is after the merge of the three parent companies (POCH, Borras, and Palouzieon), technically spoken, POCH figures do not exist, and they should all be referred to as PBP figures. Nevertheless Class I (and II) figures are often referred to as POCH figures, to distinguish them from the PBP figures which were released later on 65-backs (some of them on 45/47 as well).
  • Examples of Class I figures: Han Hoth with chocolate legs, Lando (non smile) with black neck, Rebel Soldier with white painted legs, etc.



PBP CLASS II ("POCH Hybrid")

  • Class II figures resulted from mixing up imported Asian overstock parts which were already painted in Asia and Class I parts which were painted by PBP in Spain. After welding the mixed parts this resulted in Class II figures (“hybrids”).
  • The parts painted in Asian factories most likely don’t have an unique paint job compared to Kenner figures, unlike the parts which were painted by PBP (Class I figure parts).
  • Like for Class I figures, the Quality Control on the PBP welding process was poor, sometimes resulting in all kinds of factory imperfections: meltmarks, cracks, plastic extrusions.
  • Theoretically a figure could be entirely composed of painted Asian overstock parts. Maybe this would explain the existence of seemingly normal Kenner figures (Cloud Car Pilot, Luke Hoth, 4-LOM) with melt marks in Spanish collections.
  • Class II figures were released a while after the Class I figures. Maybe PBP decided to import painted parts from Asia to meet the undercapacity/underperformance(?) of their own painting facilities. So probably they were first released on 37/41B and –C backs. Maybe even earlier (37/41A backs) as indicated in  this post about a dark brown Luke Farmboy.
  • (Possible) examples of Class II figures:
    - Bespin Guard with one pale hand (painted by PBP) and one normal hand (painted in Asia),
    - Leia Organa with glossy black head (painted by PBP) and pink hands (painted in Asia).
    - Lando with smiling face (painted in Asia) and black neck (torso painted by PBP),
    - 1978 HK COO R2 body (imported from Asia, R2 sticker on R5 body) with dull dome (metalized by PBP)
    - Luke Farmboy with dark brown hair (painted in Asia) and pale hands, neck, greenish brown pants (parts painted by PBP.



PBP CLASS III ("PBP")

  • Class III figures were produced by PBP themselves using plastic injection moulding and their own steel moulds. These moulds were imported from Asia and had their COOs removed.
  • Class III figures are characterised by:
    1) Removed COOs.
    2) unique paint jobs (e.g. pale and pink faces)
    3) hard more detailed plastic used for the torsos (CCP, Stormtrooper, Snowtrooper, Bikerscout,...)
    4) typical sharp PBP plastic smell.
  • Quality Control for Class III figures was much better compared to the Class I and II figures (paint and welding perspective). So not much factory imperfections here.
  • Examples of Class III figures: pale face CCP, the 4-LOM figure with red chest armour, pale face Luke Hoth, pale face Han Hoth, etc.
  • Production of Class III figures already started in the ESB era. For instance the PBP Han Solo was already released on 37/41C backs (see below). Most Class III figures appeared later though on 65-backs.

    Class III Han Solo (see the big belt buckle) on 37/41C back.

    Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info

  • Some Class III  figures were released on other European cards (Palitoy, Trilogo, ...) as well, like the pale face AT AT commander or the pale face Dengar. Some Class III figures were released on US cards as well (Cantina aliens). All these figures will be covered in this thread sometimes with a note that they have not been confirmed to be PBP exclusive.
  • It can be imagined that at the start of the production of Class III figures, there were still imported painted parts (Class II parts) laying around in the factory. Mixing up of these parts with PBP produced parts might have resulted in POCH-PBP hybrids. This could explain the existence of a CCP with Hong Kong COO and typical PBP pale head (see link below).
  • Hybrid Cloud Car Pilot



PBP CLASS IV ("Import")

  • Class IV figures were (overstock) figures which were produced, welded and painted in Asian/Mexican factories abroad and were subsequently imported and packaged by PBP.
  • They can be found on 45/47 backs, 65 backs, and probably also 31 backs (see link below).
  • Kenner Han Solo on PBP 31-back?
  • Examples of Class IV figures: Made in Taiwan Bikerscout / ERG on 65 back, Lili Ledy Luke Bespin, on 65 back, Hong Kong Hammerhead on 45/47 back, Kenner pink hand Han Solo on 31 back.


How do all these categories tie together?
Just some free thoughts, which could explain all this:

  • First PBP imported a few figures from Asia to test the market with 31 backs: Class IV figures (imported figures). An indication for this can be read here.
  • After a succesfull trial PBP decided to go into production themself in a stepwise approach:
  • Step 1. Importing unpainted parts from Asia and learn to paint and weld them: Class I figures ('pure POCH')
  • Step 2: After a while also painted parts were imported from Asia to meet the undercapacity/underperformance(?) of PBP’s painting facilities: Class II figures ('hybrid POCH')
  • Step 3: Sales went well and PBP decided to carry out the full production (plastic injection molding, painting, welding) prior to the release of the new ROTJ movie: Class III figures ('PBP').





***



THE POCH RULE


As mentioned before, Class I (“pure POCH”) figures are characterised by:
1) Hong Kong COOs
2) unique paint jobs (e.g. Lando black neck, Chewbacca black pouch, Han Hoth chocolate legs, pale hands,…)
3) production flaws (factory errors if you like), like:
- small cracks between the torso halves
- melt marks
- small plastic extrusions
- small droplets of paint residing on the painted surface
- sloppy paint jobs (handpainted?)

When identifying/buying Class I (and II)  POCH figures, you can make use of the "POCH rule":
A. Differences in colour scheme (paint applications) should be there before a figure can be labelled as POCH.
B. Check whether the figure originated from Spain. Chances to encounter a POCH figure outside of Spain are slim.  
C. All other aspects (melt marks, sloppy paint jobs, welding cracks, plastic extrusions,..) are considered a welcome bonus, further confirming the POCH identity, but only once condition A and B has been fulfilled.[/color]


NOTE: Just to do not distract too much from differences in paint applications, it was decided to do not fully cover the factory imperfections in the entries of the POCH figures. But just to give you an idea, below you see a few examples of typical POCH factory imperfections.  
The type and locations of these factory imperfections vary for each individual figure off course. Remember that they can also be absent.  

POCH Han Hoth: chocolate legs variant.



POCH Star Destroyer Commander.




***



LIST OF POCH/PBP FIGURE ENTRIES


  • 2-1B
  • 4-LOM
  • AT-AT Driver
  • AT-AT Commander
  • Ben Kenobi
  • Bespin Guard Black
  • Bespin Guard White
  • Biker Scout
  • Boba Fett
  • Bossk
  • C-3PO
  • Chewbacca
  • Cloud Car Pilot
  • Darth Vader
  • Death Star Droid
  • Dengar
  • FX-17
  • Greedo
  • Hammerhead
  • Han Solo
  • Han Solo Bespin
  • Han Solo Hoth
  • IG-88
  • Imperial Commander
  • Imperial Stormtrooper Hoth Battle Gear NEW
  • Jawa
  • Lando Calrissian
  • Leia Bespin
  • Leia Hoth
  • Leia Organa
  • Lobot
  • Luke Bespin
  • Luke Farmboy
  • Luke Hoth
  • Luke X-Wing
  • Powerdroid
  • R2-D2
  • R5-D4
  • Rebel Commander
  • Rebel Soldier
  • Snaggletooth
  • Star Destroyer Commander
  • Stormtrooper
  • TIE Fighter Pilot
  • Tusken Raider
  • Ugnaught
  • Walrusman
  • Yoda




***



OVERVIEW OF FIGURE POSTS WITHIN THIS THREAD

Still a lot needs to be researched and discussed in order to make some sound figure entries. Luckily many TIG members contributed to this thread to stimulate further discussions and research. The posts are scattered around the thread, but by using the overview list below, you should be able to find the info on the figure you are looking for.

(List Updated till June 16th 2013)



CLASS I & II FIGURES (POCH ERA)




CLASS III FIGURES (PBP ERA)




CLASS IV FIGURES? (IMPORTED)





***



POCH/PBP ACCESSORIES

Most of the POCH/PBP accessories (weapons, capes, stickers...) look identical to accessories which were supplied with Kenner figures. It might therefore well be that PBP imported most or maybe all of their accessories from Far East factories that also used to produce for Kenner. That would explain why for instance the PBP 4-LOM cape is virtually indistinguishable from capes that came with Kenner US figures.  
However there are a few accessories that seem to be linked to the PBP line. For instance the 4-LOM red harnass, the blue 'metal' Bespin blaster, the light grey CCP blaster and commlink, and the light grey Biker Scout blaster. Still these accessories might be produced in the Far East as well. They might just represent (small) lots that were produced for PBP using different batches of plastic/dye. Maybe comparable to the TolToys Jawa vinyl cape, which was never produced by TolToys but appeared to be exclusively linked to the TT Jawa.



***



JOIN THE POCH/PBP DISCUSSIONS!

The information in this thread is neither complete nor presents you the absolute truth on POCH/PBP figures. There is still a lot unclear and left open for discussions. Also when something is plain wrong, just chime in and let me know. The main goal of this thread is to have openminded discussions, in order to know a bit more about POCH/PBP at the end of the day.


ALSO, PLEASE POST PICTURES OF YOUR OWN POCH/PBP FIGURES. Show us what you got!! Very Happy






***



USEFUL POCH/PBP LINKS

A list of useful POCH/PBP links:
http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/poch/
http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info/juguetes
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t891-the-tig-pbp-poch-character-discussion-thread?highlight=poch



***



ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

I like to thank Javi (javiswspain), Wolff (Wbobafett), JC (Panastur), Kenneth (Kenneth_B), Lee (Lee_m), and James (aussiejames) for sharing their POCH/PBP knowledge and critically reviewing the first two posts in this thread before starting it in June 2012.

I like to thank the same guys for contributing regularly to this thread. Same goes for Ricardo (Ackbar100), Stefan (Walki), Mirco (mike-mkywalker), Steve (cantina_patron), Dieter (orangpendek) and all others which I haven't mentioned here yet. Your contributions and discussions keep this thread alive!  Very Happy

Thanks to the guys behind starwarsspanishstuff.info for letting me use pictures from their great site.  

Many kudos for Uli (Idefix13). His "Little guide to POCH/PBP figure variations" from 2008 was the spark that initiated my interest in these Spanish figures. The POCH/PBP logo which is used throughout his thread is taken from his PDF guide and used with permission. Thanks Uli, we miss you, and hope your enthusiasm for the hobby will revive one day, ans we see you return.

Cheers

Marco


***




***


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:57 pm



4-LOM



COO guide for 4-LOM


NOTE: COO #3 is unique for PBP.



COO #3 (PBP ERA)

In the picture below a PBP 4-LOM (COO #3) is compared to his Kenner brother (COO #1). Both COOs are from the same COO family, so both figures share the same mould characteristics.

4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).


4-LOM: Kenner COO #1 (left), PBP COO #3 (right).




DIFFERENCES:
Compared to his Kenner counterpart, the PBP 4-LOM has:
- an unique COO (COO #3)
- a glossy black instead of dull black nose.
- a body cast in a bit darker brown plastic.  
- a reddish brown instead of dark brown chest armour which is cast in a more rubbery plastic (see further below)

REMARK: This figure was released on ROTJ cards (PBP Era).


ACCESSORIES

CAPE:

Compared to the Kenner cape (which came with COO #1 figures), the PBP cape has:
- A lighter brown colour
- Rough instead of smooth textured outer surface
- White instead of greenish lining at the innerside
- Smooth edged instead of sharp edged cut around the collar

NOTE: Keep in mind that Kenner also released a cape which is almost/entirely indistinguishable compared to the PBP cape. Maybe PBP imported their capes from the same Far East factory which also produced capes for Kenner.









CHEST ARMOUR:

The PBP 4-LOM wears a chest armour which is cast in a reddish brown instead of dark brown plastic. In addition the PBP armour feels more rubbery than the Kenner armour.

NOTE: The steel mould for the 4-LOM chest armour had different mould cavities. These could easily be distinguished by the numbers indicated on the innerside, to help Quality Control to locate the problem in case there were defects:
- V1: 659019   (2)    1  
- V2: 659019   (2)    2
- V3: 659019   (2)    3
- V4: 659019   (2)    4


The following moulds have been confirmed for the PBP chest armour: V1, V2. In the pics below you can see the V2 mould.

Were V3 and V4 also used by PBP to cast the chest armour?







GUN:
The PBP 4-LOM carries the V1 gun (with circle indent). I don't see any differences with guns that came with Kenner figures.



http://www.imperialgunnery.com/theriflessection.htm


Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info



Bounty Hunter scene from 6:55.


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:05 pm

Here are my PBP cardbacks:-

First up are my PBP 65 backs with special offer:-



Next up are PBP 65 backs offerless:-



And lastly, my trilogo PBP's:-



Jason
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:35 am



Great set of cardbacks! Thanks for sharing, Jason! Very Happy

Are you hunting for ESB cardbacks as well?

Personally I would love to add a ESB 37/41 back to my collection one day.




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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:04 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:


Great set of cardbacks! Thanks for sharing, Jason! Very Happy

Are you hunting for ESB cardbacks as well?

Personally I would love to add a ESB 37/41 back to my collection one day.





Yes I am. Would love a Poch cardback or 2 in my collection!

Smile

Jason
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:26 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:


DIFFERENCES:
Compared to his Kenner counterpart, the PBP 4-LOM has:
- an unique COO (COO #3)
- a glossy black instead of dull black nose.
- a body cast in a bit darker brown plastic.
- a reddish brown instead of dark brown chest armour which is cast in a more rubbery plastic (see further below)
- a shade lighter brown cape with a white instead of greenish fabric at the innerside. Is this unique to PBP, how about the Palitoy cape?


Here is a pic. showing the inside of my Palitoy cape. It is the same as my Kenner one.

[img][/img]
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:34 am




So the cape with greenish white fabric at the innerside seems to be unique for PBP.

Thanks Steve, great info! + on your way.


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:00 am

There are also US white capes! I think the lining is not helpfull at all to spot PBP capes. Its more the slight different structure on the outside!
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:07 am

Yep, I have 3 greenish & 3 whitish inside of HK capes.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:44 am



So we can forget about the lining as an unique PBP marker. That's the good thing about having a discussion thread, at the end of the day we all learn something.


As Wolff suggested, the outer structure might be indicative.
From what I can see, the PBP cape is a shade lighter brown, and the surface looks a bit more weathered (small cracks), compared to a Kenner cape. I don’t have the Palitoy 4-LOM to compare to.

A comparison pic of the Kenner, Palitoy and PBP cape would be helpful here.
Any volunteers?
Wolff? Kevin?


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:43 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:


So we can forget about the lining as an unique PBP marker. That's the good thing about having a discussion thread, at the end of the day we all learn something.


As Wolff suggested, the outer structure might be indicative.
From what I can see, the PBP cape is a shade lighter brown, and the surface looks a bit more weathered (small cracks), compared to a Kenner cape. I don’t have the Palitoy 4-LOM to compare to.

A comparison pic of the Kenner, Palitoy and PBP cape would be helpful here.
Any volunteers?
Wolff? Kevin?



I should have a picture ready.....let me search

edit: okay found it.....now where to upload...LOL (this wasnt a bummer a few weeks ago :/ )
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:48 am

THE SOLUTION IS OF COURSE THE SWSPACECLUB....LOLOLOLOLOL....(I wont upload on RS anymore....of course Wink )




okay: I wrote myself then (I guess its 2 years back) that the color on the US cape seems to be more cream then white! But again...this difference is minor!

The MAIN thing I noticed is the different cut on the european one! IMO nobody noticed this before. I find this very interesting because lots of 4-lom collectors always told me and the collectors there is absolutley no cape variants! The green is from discoloration, but hey...how do you explain different cut though???

Wink

The picture is btw from the original planned variant guide that was and never will be finished...a real shame ....a personal epic fail Sad
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:20 pm



Nice overview pic, and sharp observation about the different cuts!

A, B and C are US, Palitoy (European), and PBP respectively, I guess.

The difference between the Palitoy and PBP version are minimal if any. Creamy vs white liner?

How (un)realistic is it to assume that capes B and C are virtually the same (just minor batch - to batch variation), and were produced by the same factory? scratch

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:31 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:


Nice overview pic, and sharp observation about the different cuts!

A, B and C are US, Palitoy (European), and PBP respectively, I guess.

The difference between the Palitoy and PBP version are minimal if any. Creamy vs white liner?

How (un)realistic is it to assume that capes B and C are virtually the same (just minor batch - to batch variation), and were produced by the same factory? scratch


It could be that B and C are the same. We try to track down differences to PBP and I had about 3 or 4 ones on spanish dudes directly from spain. I can recheck, but to be honest it still can be a batch thing and its maybe imposiible to know for sure!

to me the european one is the A. I have this one since my childhood! I had a second one sold years ago before I noticed that US capes (B) look totally different! I wouldnt say they are palitoy...just seem to pop up more often in europe.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:31 am

OK let me try to summarize, and pls correct me when wrong.

  • A. European: Narrow collar. Greenish lining. Darker brown and smooth outer surface
  • B. US / Kenner. V-shaped collar. Creamy lining. Lighter brown and rougher textured outer surface.
  • C. Spain / PBP. V-shaped collar. White lining. Lighter brown and rougher textured outer surface.


Capes B and C might be the same. That would indicate that PBP imported those capes from the Far East, like Kenner did?
Or - less likely - that PBP exported their capes to the US?

Steve: Your Palitoy cape is which type?

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:26 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:

Steve: Your Palitoy cape is which type?


Bugger! It has the same cut as B (Kenner). Is this a known combo with COO #2, or has it been swapped?

The chest armour is the V2.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:56 pm

I'll upload some pics of my PBP 4LOM that popped off the bubble. I remember I compared when I first got it and couldn't tell the difference between a HK coat but I didn't look that close. Ive made sure to keep the original coat and gun with it, even though the coat has red staining from the cardback for just this occasion! There are definitely differences in some HK capes that have a darker inside. Also I have found some HKs that have a pinker skin tone and lighter armour. I'm not sure if this is a variance or degradation though as the pinker ones have the lighter armour as well.

I'll get some macro shots and put them up here so we can compare to what Wolff found. I've got about 6 of the Palitoy ones as well but cannot confirm that they have their original coats like I can for the PBP. I bought some in a lot so they just got the best coats that i has as I couldn't have those English gentlemen running around town in a ripped up coat!
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:59 pm

@cantina_patron wrote:
@Dr Dengar wrote:

Steve: Your Palitoy cape is which type?


Bugger! It has the same cut as B (Kenner). Is this a known combo with COO #2, or has it been swapped?

The chest armour is the V2.

Maybe I missed something here, but what is a "palitoy" 4-lom??? The no coo??? I never noticed he should have or came with a different cape!

The "european" one (A) Im refering to comes with normel HK coo!!
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:06 pm

Terminology is a bit confusing here, I guess.

The COO guide labels COO #2 as Palitoy.

How would you describe it in a newer version of the COO guide, European? Something else?

And is this the figure that came with cape A?



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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:27 pm

I've always seen the raised bar variant called Palitoy/PBP. I'm not sure how it got labelled that though, I usually just call it the Palitoy variant to avoid confusion with the black nosed PBP variant.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:39 pm

Cape A doesnt belong to that "palitoy" varaint! As mentioned cape A comes with normal HK coos!

I also wouldnt call one of those raised bar! Raised bar is sth china factories used and can clearly called "bar". The so called Palitoy is a "melted" down no coo...although Im not happy with this terminolgy either. I never saw this oned called "PBP" besides of people trying to make money!

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:26 pm

@wbobafett wrote:





I took some pics but really I can't touch Wolff's skills. My coat looks like his in the photo above. I think the thread is maybe a micro thicker and whiter compared to B which gives the interior of the coat a whiter looking finish. I compared it to a "Palitoy melt COO " that I was told is original and it checks out with the pic B above. Did Palitoys only come with coat B? I have no idea. My other "palitoys" definetly have mixed up coats.

The armour is V1 (659019 2 1)

Another thing I noticed is the flashing at the wield on top of the head. Mine has that too.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:28 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
@cantina_patron wrote:
@Dr Dengar wrote:

Steve: Your Palitoy cape is which type?


Bugger! It has the same cut as B (Kenner). Is this a known combo with COO #2, or has it been swapped?

The chest armour is the V2.

Maybe I missed something here, but what is a "palitoy" 4-lom??? The no coo??? I never noticed he should have or came with a different cape!

The "european" one (A) Im refering to comes with normel HK coo!!

Apologies, I incorrectly thought that COO #2 should come with cape A. Things are clearer now.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:29 pm

I'm clearly out of my element here in micro variants! Raised bar, melted, I don't know....Sorry about the mixup!

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:52 pm

Oh ya, the outer coat is more of an in between of A and B. Not quite smooth showing faint creases.
My carded one looks closer to a B than C.

Most of my carded ones (including the 45 back carded sample) on quick glance seem to be an in between of A and B. Not 100% smooth but not extremely weathered like C. I think the only smooth one like A I found was on a QC 48C.

My loose ones (40 or so) all differ in weathering. I think this may be more a show of weathering during play or packing.
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