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 THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:16 am


POCH emperor Razz
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:30 am

lol!
(By the way it's Anakin, so you've made an even greater discovery!)
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:34 am

Embarassed
2 old guys in a grey jumpsuit/robe- easily confused.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:04 am

@The_Dark_Artist wrote:
That's a beauty Marco : )
Seriously, I have a ton of respect for the variant hunters. I consider myself a novice in training. I also understand how rare some of these figures are. But some of the prices I have seen on some of the POCH/PBP figures lately have been EXTREMELY high. On the other hand I have seen sellers with very modest/respectable prices also (via Lee and Kenneth)... So what gives? BUT when I see a "POCH Fett" for $911, I have to ask if it is a prototype at that price? It's like the Spanish Circus has come to town... There is a lot of clowns running around! They are all sitting in the front row and laughing their asses off at us...

One of the must funny posts ever. cheers bow Besides that you're absolutely right Steve - prices for questionable loose Poch figures are insane at times. But on the other hand I have lots of difficulties selling my spare Poch figures in here and on RS at reasonable prices (in my opinion too), so maybe people have more common sense in here than some idiot buyers on for instance ebay? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:48 am


Personally I wouldn’t buy a figure which only POCH characteristics are melt marks.

My 'rule': There should at least be a combination of different characteristics which all together make it very likely that a figure is a POCH figure. So apart from melt marks, also check:
- Colour scheme
- Sloppy paint job
- Welding cracks
- Plastic extrusions

Many of the figures currently on ebay do not fit this rule. So though they may be POCH, they are not interesting to me.


BTW: lol! about Anakin. Factory or home made?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:06 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:

Personally I wouldn’t buy a figure which only POCH characteristics are melt marks.

My 'rule': There should at least be a combination of different characteristics which all together make it very likely that a figure is a POCH figure. So apart from melt marks, also check:
- Colour scheme
- Sloppy paint job
- Welding cracks
- Plastic extrusions

Many of the figures currently on ebay do not fit this rule. So though they may be POCH, they are not interesting to me.


That is common sense Marco! Very Happy I totally agree. I'll however gladly take some chances buying figures from Spain now and then, even if they are not proven to be Poch. As long as the prices are reasonable I feel, that I'm contributing to the Poch "project" by doing so. Sometimes you win by doing so, and sometimes you loose. We cannot expect to find many more carded Poch figures for comparision/classification, so I feel, that it's necessary to purchase a lot of figures from Spain from different sourches in order to get a clearer pic of, what is Poch and what is not. On figures like Ugnaught and Boba Fett we might never see a Poch 37/41 back A carded sample. Maybe none have survived, or maybe there could be one or two in private collections?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:14 am






Hi, my name is lfantelo, I'm from Madrid, and I am a collector focused on 1) AFA PBP ROTJ MOC; 2) AFA Poch ESB MOC and 3) loose Poch figures. As a howdy, I enclose some pics of my Poch loose collection, all acquired directly from the original owner and with the "poch test" duly passed concerning extrusions, bubbles, freaky wielding, white hands, special features private to some of the pictures...
Close ups attached of:

1.- Poch Fett (check the unpainted middle section of the belt as well as the evident extrusions on left foot and bottom)
2.- Poch grey/green Yoda & unpainted pouch, weird coloured-limbed Chewie (the unpainting is not private to Glasslite)
3.- Some Lukes, chocolate-legged Han, black-necked Lando...

Best and talk soon,

Luis
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:22 am

Hi Luis welcome

Truly exceptional collection! Very jealous of that Yoda Nice! bow
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:26 am

cheers welcome

Thats an impressive first post Smile
I look forward to you sharing your knowledge & helping us unveil some 'secrets' to these POCH figures.
I'm sure we'd all like to see pictures of your MOCs as well.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:41 am

@Kenneth_B wrote:


That is common sense Marco! Very Happy I totally agree. I'll however gladly take some chances buying figures from Spain now and then, even if they are not proven to be Poch. As long as the prices are reasonable I feel, that I'm contributing to the Poch "project" by doing so. Sometimes you win by doing so, and sometimes you loose. We cannot expect to find many more carded Poch figures for comparision/classification, so I feel, that it's necessary to purchase a lot of figures from Spain from different sourches in order to get a clearer pic of, what is Poch and what is not. On figures like Ugnaught and Boba Fett we might never see a Poch 37/41 back A carded sample. Maybe none have survived, or maybe there could be one or two in private collections?

@ Kenneth: Good amendment to my rule, thx! Very Happy
The rule is only applied when buying loose figures which are sold as POCH.

The most interesting part about collecting POCH, is buying lots from Spain – while disregarding the rule - and hoping some of the figures might have the POCH characteristics after researching them. One result is no result however. A figure needs to pop up more than once, and ideally in different collections, before we can start to label it as POCH.
As you mentioned, we will have to accept that a definite proof from high res MOC pics, will be a NO GO for most POCH figures. That’s unless these MOCs pop up from private collections and are shared to the community.

I hope this thread will help us by providing a platform to share pics of loose figures and who knows even MOCs.

@ Luis: Welcome aboard. Good timing and a great collection! welcome
Looking forward to see the pics of your loose figures and MOCs in this thread in the future.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:29 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:

Personally I wouldn’t buy a figure which only POCH characteristics are melt marks.

My 'rule': There should at least be a combination of different characteristics which all together make it very likely that a figure is a POCH figure. So apart from melt marks, also check:
- Colour scheme
- Sloppy paint job
- Welding cracks
- Plastic extrusions

Many of the figures currently on ebay do not fit this rule. So though they may be POCH, they are not interesting to me.


For me the only identifer of a POCH figure is:

-Paint application (colour scheme)

Mould details are shared by Kenner figures so can't be used to distinguish.

As for these:

-Melt marks
-Sloppy paint jobs
-Welding cracks
-Plastic extrusions

These are all factory errors and shouldn't define how a particular variant is identified.

Yes they are "symptoms" (as I like to call it) of a POCH figure just as green spots maybe a symptom of a TT Jawa - but without the cape its no TT Jawa.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:46 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:
***



STAR DESTROYER COMMANDER




COO guide for Star Destoyer Commander


NOTES:
- COO #3 is shared by POCH and Kenner (POCH Era figure).


COO #3: POCH ERA

In the pictures below a POCH Star Destroyer Commander is compared to a Kenner figure sharing the same COO #3.

Star Destroyer Commander COO #3: Kenner (left), POCH (right).


Star Destroyer Commander COO #3: Kenner (left), POCH (right).


Star Destroyer Commander COO #3: Kenner (left), POCH (right).


Star Destroyer Commander COO #3: Kenner (left), POCH (right).


Star Destroyer Commander COO #3: Kenner (left), POCH (right).


Star Destroyer Commander COO #3: Kenner (left), POCH (right).



DIFFERENCES:
The differences between the two figures are subtle. Compared to his Kenner counterpart, the POCH Star Destroyer Commander has:
- a more pinkish face .
- thicker paint apps for the eyes and eye brows.
- an unique emblem composed of a paler blue and a more vibrant red bar.
- In addition - as mentioned on Wolff's site - the red bar of the POCH emblem was applied on top of the blue bar. In the Kenner figure this is the other way around.



In addition the figure in the pics has some typical POCH characteristics, which are indicated in the pic below.



A plastic extrusion on the left foot seem to be present in a MOC figure example as well when looking very carefully (see pic below). This is another indication that the figure discussed here is indeed a POCH variant. Another indication is that the figure came from a Spanish lot also containing confirmed POCH figures (like Han Hoth, Lando).


Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info


ACCESSORIES

GUN

The POCH Star Destroyer Commander came with a black Imperial blaster.


REMARK

You can read more about the POCH Star Destroyer Commander on Wolff's great site: http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/poch/poch-variants/death-squad-commander/





Hi again!!
Here you have one of my POCH Star destroyer Commander figures, with different characteristic the one dr Dengar described (GREAT WORK). You have keep in mind that in many cases, two figures of the same character, can have differents characteristics (paint, COO, marks) and both are POCH figures.
One example is the famous Han Solo Hoth chocolate legs. I have a Han solo Hoth POCH with no chocolate legs and different COO and is 100% confirmed POCH because I have the cardback where the figure came in originally. So no all the Han solo hoth POCH figures has the chocolate legs, so this is more complicated that it seems...
My star destroyer commander has:
-Different COO.
-Pale face , thinner paint for the eyes and eyebrows.
-The emblem has a dark blue bar.
-Paint droplets on glooves and and boots.
-Plastic extrusion on bottoms of both boots (more evident in the right one)
-No melt marks.
I´m agree, with Dr Dengar, is the combination of different characteristics which all together make it very likely that a figure is a POCH figure,mainly, no doubt, the colour scheme and the sloopy paint job. And remember, NOT ALL THE POCH FIGURES HAVE MELT MARKS. AND ITS ABSURD TO THINK THAT YOU HAVE A POCH FIGURE WHEN THE ONLY CHARACTERISTIC IS TO HAVE A MELT MARK.
Here you have the photos, hope you enjoy.





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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:34 pm

I agree with Oli. These are only signs of poor production which can happy in ANY production in the world. They can be hints but its no sign to identify stuff!

Most important is that the figures have to appear on the early Poch cards, so no CCP, no Tie Pilot, no Luke Hoth possible or whatelse is out there and claimed to be Poch in the last month! You can find meltmarks on all Kenner figures as well.

The next problem is: Poch seem to have used overstock parats from Asian factories. So a lot of Poch figures are mixed up with those parts. The challenge is to find the "pure" Poch figure and this is normally only ONE variant! If I hear 2, 3 or more variants it chukkles me because thats simply not possible on most! Its mixed up trash...no variant at all...a factory error if you will....

To make the bubble burst (LOL), IMO only one of the black neck Landos is Poch....the other one is a mixed up figure with Asian overstock head Wink
I will get flamed for that, but Im pretty sure that there is only ONE variant on those on 98% of them "produced" by Poch!

Have fun......Im out of that "Poch buisness". Collecting should be fun...and the fun on Poch has gone since month!

Means: No more posts on poch matters and no new entries on the guide....till people find there comon sense again Wink
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:57 pm

@javitc wrote:

Hi again!!
Here you have one of my POCH Star destroyer Commander figures, with different characteristic the one dr Dengar described (GREAT WORK). You have keep in mind that in many cases, two figures of the same character, can have differents characteristics (paint, COO, marks) and both are POCH figures.
One example is the famous Han Solo Hoth chocolate legs. I have a Han solo Hoth POCH with no chocolate legs and different COO and is 100% confirmed POCH because I have the cardback where the figure came in originally. So no all the Han solo hoth POCH figures has the chocolate legs, so this is more complicated that it seems...
Ok fair enough but POCH didnt produce figures (PBP did some) and not all figures on POCH cards can necessarily be classified as a POCH figure right?

That's just like me saying a Boba Fett that came on a Palitoy card that looks like a regular Fett is a Palitoy.

Also since POCH figures share the same COO and mould details of Kenner figures then it is only paint applications that differentiate them. So if the figure doesn't have those paint applications then surely it would be difficult to argue its a POCH. I don't think melt marks and other factory errors carry much weight on their own. Just my 2 cents and I realise as I write this I'm repeating myself. Lol. I know the general feeling out there with a lot of collectors is that this classification of POCHs based on factory errors is getting a bit crazy and people are grasping at straws trying to create something that doesn't exist. POCH classification is not as tangible as Lili Ledy classification. It really is making a lot of people loose interest in POCH figures and  damaging peoples opinions of this collecting area which i think is responsible for the low prices of POCHs on these boards.

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:05 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
I agree with Oli. These are only signs of poor production which can happy in ANY production in the world. They can be hints but its no sign to identify stuff!

Most important is that the figures have to appear on the early Poch cards, so no CCP, no Tie Pilot, no Luke Hoth possible or whatelse is out there and claimed to be Poch in the last month! You can find meltmarks on all Kenner figures as well.

The next problem is: Poch seem to have used overstock parats from Asian factories. So a lot of Poch figures are mixed up with those parts. The challenge is to find the "pure" Poch figure and this is normally only ONE variant! If I hear 2, 3 or more variants it chukkles me because thats simply not possible on most! Its mixed up trash...no variant at all...a factory error if you will....

To make the bubble burst (LOL), IMO only one of the black neck Landos is Poch....the other one is a mixed up figure with Asian overstock head Wink
I will get flamed for that, but Im pretty sure that there is only ONE variant on those on 98% of them "produced" by Poch!

Have fun......Im out of that "Poch buisness". Collecting should be fun...and the fun on Poch has gone since month!

Means: No more posts on poch matters and no new entries on the guide....till people find there comon sense again Wink


Lol. Forget what I said, Wolff said it better Smile

Stop the madness!  Smile


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:33 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
I agree with Oli. These are only signs of poor production which can happy in ANY production in the world. They can be hints but its no sign to identify stuff!

Most important is that the figures have to appear on the early Poch cards, so no CCP, no Tie Pilot, no Luke Hoth possible or whatelse is out there and claimed to be Poch in the last month! You can find meltmarks on all Kenner figures as well.

The next problem is: Poch seem to have used overstock parats from Asian factories. So a lot of Poch figures are mixed up with those parts. The challenge is to find the "pure" Poch figure and this is normally only ONE variant! If I hear 2, 3 or more variants it chukkles me because thats simply not possible on most! Its mixed up trash...no variant at all...a factory error if you will....

To make the bubble burst (LOL), IMO only one of the black neck Landos is Poch....the other one is a mixed up figure with Asian overstock head Wink
I will get flamed for that, but Im pretty sure that there is only ONE variant on those on 98% of them "produced" by Poch!

Have fun......Im out of that "Poch buisness". Collecting should be fun...and the fun on Poch has gone since month!

Means: No more posts on poch matters and no new entries on the guide....till people find there comon sense again Wink
Hi again.
I´ll try to explain again. The main characteristic of the POCH death star commnader I think is the paint droplets on hands and boots. My figure have this , but have other different characteristic, like the COO. We can say is another variation or not, but is different to the other one. What of the two figures is the "pure " POCH variation? I think is the same variation (different paint work) with another different characteristic (not POCH especific). I,ll post this photos because I think It would be interesting... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:36 pm

@javitc wrote:

Hi again.
I´ll try to explain again. The main characteristic of the POCH death star commnader I think is the paint droplets on hands and boots. My figure have this , but have other different characteristic, like the COO. We can say is another variation or not, but is different to the other one. What of the two figures is the "pure " POCH variation? I think is the same variation (different paint work) with another different characteristic (not POCH especific). I,ll post this photos because I think It would be interesting... Smile

never mind...was not talking to you or about your DSC! I was talking about the generell situation Wink

You reached me on the wrong foot...has nothing to do with you or your figures!

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:45 pm

@olisuds wrote:
@javitc wrote:

Hi again!!
Here you have one of my POCH Star destroyer Commander figures, with different characteristic the one dr Dengar described (GREAT WORK). You have keep in mind that in many cases, two figures of the same character, can have differents characteristics (paint, COO, marks) and both are POCH figures.
One example is the famous Han Solo Hoth chocolate legs. I have a Han solo Hoth POCH with no chocolate legs and different COO and is 100% confirmed POCH because I have the cardback where the figure came in originally. So no all the Han solo hoth POCH figures has the chocolate legs, so this is more complicated that it seems...
Ok fair enough but POCH didnt produce figures (PBP did some) and not all figures on POCH cards can necessarily be classified as a POCH figure right?

That's just like me saying a Boba Fett that came on a Palitoy card that looks like a regular Fett is a Palitoy.

Also since POCH figures share the same COO and mould details of Kenner figures then it is only paint applications that differentiate them. So if the figure doesn't have those paint applications then surely it would be difficult to argue its a POCH. I don't think melt marks and other factory errors carry much weight on their own. Just my 2 cents and I realise as I write this I'm repeating myself. Lol. I know the general feeling out there with a lot of collectors is that this classification of POCHs based on factory errors is getting a bit crazy and people are grasping at straws trying to create something that doesn't exist. POCH classification is not as tangible as Lili Ledy classification. It really is making a lot of people loose interest in POCH figures and  damaging peoples opinions of this collecting area which i think is responsible for the low prices of POCHs on these boards.


Hi!!
I´m agree with you. I try to explain again. The main important aspect of this POCH figures, is the different paint work. And I,m agree, not all figures on POCH cards can classified as a POCH figure. My example of the Han HOTH no chocolate legs is because it has a COO that I´never see (kenner, palitoy)...
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:49 pm

@lfantelo wrote:


Hey Luis, welcome to the boards! As mentioned before meltnmarks and other factory errors are only hints no proof for Poch!

For your collection:

Poch:
- Lobot
- Luke Bespin
- Han Hoth
- Leia Bespin
- Tusken (?)
- Bespin Guard
- Lando BN
- Luke Pilot
- Imperial Commander


NO Poch(or mixed up figure):
-Luke Farmboy
-Han original
-ATAT Commander (never appeared on early spanish cards)
-Jawa
-Leia
-Rebel Soldier
-Chewbacca



Cant be said because of the picture/lacking evidence of MOC and investigation:
Vader
Snowtrooper
R2
C-3PO
ATAT Driver
DSC
R5
Boba
IG
Yoda
Stromtrooper
2-1B

...not sure about Ben...though (could be mixed up)

We all would like to see more pictures of the questionable figures Wink


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:52 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
@javitc wrote:

Hi again.
I´ll try to explain again. The main characteristic of the POCH death star commnader I think is the paint droplets on hands and boots. My figure have this , but have other different characteristic, like the COO. We can say is another variation or not, but is different to the other one. What of the two figures is the "pure " POCH variation? I think is the same variation (different paint work) with another different characteristic (not POCH especific). I,ll post this photos because I think It would be interesting... Smile

never mind...was not talking to you or about your DSC! I was talking about the generell situation Wink

You reached me on the wrong foot...has nothing to do with you or your figures!

OK Smile
You are right, this situation is going a little bit crazy....
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:53 pm

@javitc wrote:

Hi!!
I´m agree with you. I try to explain again. The main important aspect of this POCH figures, is the different paint work. And I,m agree, not all figures on POCH cards can classified as a POCH figure. My example of the Han HOTH no chocolate legs is because it has a COO that I´never see (kenner, palitoy)...

Can you spot him here???


I can already tell you that the coo is NOT unique!!! Wink Very Happy

But he is on that picture........
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:47 pm

Cool mixed limb factory error!
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:48 pm

there is (in general) no unique coo to Poch figures. Believe me, I collect coos since decades now Very Happy

Coos got mixed up on a lot of those spanish figures because of overstock IMO!

(The one you are searching is in last row on the far right). He doesnt look special at all to me but these can be found in Spain I agree! Now is it variant or a chocolate boots Han with wrong (overstock) legs?? Ist surely "half" Poch. Will we ever know???

Mixed up coos can be found on spanish Dnagras, Snowtroopers and Han Hoith pretty often, but are they factory errors (mixed up) or legit variants?? I doubt the variant thing!

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:11 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
there is (in general) no unique coo to Poch figures. Believe me, I collect coos since decades now Very Happy

Coos got mixed up on a lot of those spanish figures because of overstock IMO!

(The one you are searching is in last row on the far right). He doesnt look special at all to me but these can be found in Spain I agree! Now is it variant or a chocolate boots Han with wrong (overstock) legs?? Ist surely "half" Poch. Will we ever know???

Mixed up coos can be found on spanish Dnagras, Snowtroopers and Han Hoith pretty often, but are they factory errors (mixed up) or legit variants?? I doubt the variant thing!

OK Wolff, I understand.
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olisuds
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:30 pm

@lfantelo wrote:

1.- Poch Fett (check the unpainted middle section of the belt as well as the evident extrusions on left foot and bottom)
2.- Poch grey/green Yoda & unpainted pouch, weird coloured-limbed Chewie (the unpainting is not private to Glasslite)
3.- Some Lukes, chocolate-legged Han, black-necked Lando...


Luis, from what I can see your Boba Fett has an unpainted belt and some plastic extrusions which are factory errors and dont make it a POCH. Your Chewbacca has green limbs which is discolouration not making it a POCH. The Death Squad commander has bubbles which is a factory error which on its own does not make it a POCH.

Are there any unique details of paint application (not factory errors) that distinguish these from other figures and make them unique to POCH. The COOs are not unique as they are all shared with with Kenner. And buying it in Spain or having its old POCH card back doesn't make it POCH either - they were made in Asia.

Lili Ledy, Glaslite, Top Toys, Takara, PBP all have unique paint applications, COO, moulds, sculpts etc. Classifying a figure purely based on factory errors or discolouration is crazy and no one is going to take that kind of collecting seriously.

We're very interested in your collection so maybe you can tell us more about them and the identifiable characteristics.
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THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE

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