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 THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE

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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:20 am

@aussiejames wrote:
Laughing I wear my hard earned negs proudly Smile
@plantainman wrote:
(I accidently down voted your post - I thought it was a scroll bar lol [noob])


I seen that after I sent that post lol. Whilst where on the subject do you know where the PBP V8 label came from and what MOCs and baggies it appears in? Please don't think I'm trying to disrespect the gunnery or TIG in any way, I'm just trying to piece together all this euro production and distribution.

I'm wondering if Palitoy where also sending PBP figures as well as the other way round.

What's yours or anyone else's opinion on the some V3 and V7 also being produced by PBP, sharing the same molds as Ledy?

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:40 am

Slightly off topic but the current unemployment situation in Spain isn't good for POCH collectors as our spanish cousins need to make a living....


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21180371

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:13 am

More supply might also deflate prices....


Actually, I am hoping for a scenario in which the Spanish economy will recover and Spanish collectors feel much happier and don't need to sell off their collections.

If that means prices of POCH figures stay high (limited supply), so be it.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:23 pm

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to expose my point of view respect the current "hype" with the PBP figures...

Not all spanish collectors does in the "loose" category. Like many other guys in Spain, i am a carded and paper stuff collector. I do everything European; carded, boxed and printed, just because it remember me the old toy stores display full of carded and boxed stuff i couldn't afford..

From the beginning i followed this "POCH/PBP thread" with curiosity because i always believed i could learn something new on these toys. I always tried to help the posters with my personal info.

Now, things had turned a way i personally dislike. These days i am reading too much posts (in many other forums) pointing spanish collectors as guilty and responsable of the way market prices are rocketing.... This is just ridiculous!!

Spanish economy has nothing to do with the current market of the PBP/Poch figures.

Believe me if i tell you that i received at least a couple of e-mails per week asking me to buy or help to buy set of figures posted on spanish "second-hand" webpages, and then see these figures sell for ceazy money in our forums. And believe me these e-mails come from non-spanish guys...

It's sure that our spanish economy don't help that much, but what i noticed is that more and more so-called spanish collectors are mimicking these established practices to make quick and easy money.

Believe me, spanish figure aren't that amazing. They don't worth that money.... and i am sure there's enought stuff out there to satisfy every interested collector.

Please, don't pay that money... just be patient!!!

A spanish collector.

JC Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:39 pm

Finally, some honesty! That's why I want nothing to do with PBP/POCH and sold off everything I owned at honest prices....
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:04 am

Good point, Juan Carlos. As a logical consequence of your assertions, I guess you won't mind selling me one (any: you choose) of your Poch MOC's for let's say... 1000€?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:54 am

JC

I really appreciate your reply. I don't think Spanish Collectors are to blame. The market determines value. Frankly if people are willing to.pay high priced for an item then so be it. We have seen plenty of other lines go up in price and then drop too. Im sure these will too. I remember Polish Bootlegs command prices that are triple what they sell for.

The market will correct itself. it always does. Ill say the demand for carded POCHs will always remain strong. Im still searching for just one!

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:30 am

@lfantelo wrote:
Good point, Juan Carlos. As a logical consequence of your assertions, I guess you won't mind selling me one (any: you choose) of your Poch MOC's for let's say... 1000€?

Hola Luis,

First, let says that it would be illogical to mix appels and pears... but yes, i would be more than happy to sell my carded figures at this price without loosing my pants... I really don't make the price. Prices are made by people who's paying that prices.

I already posted on SWSS that the carded figures i upgraded in my collection were offered to other collectors and friends for a ridiculous price. The last were a Leia Hoth and a Bespin Solo, both on spanish ESB 37/41bck for 1250€ each... and believe me, i could sell them for at least twice the price, if not triple...

Anyway, i am a collector, not a seller. I hope to keep them as long as i live since one of my son has great interest in them and share the same passion.

And last,...this should work in both ways; if i sold my cards at low prices, people should be ready to sell their own the same way.

It's a long and harsh educational path... What a Face

JC Wink
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:42 am

John, you're totally right... this PBP story sounds like the "Polish bootled" episode....Market will correct itself.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:44 am

Two weeks ago I shared some pics of a Spanish apple green Yoda. This figure had some unique features compared to US apple green Yoda figures (see p 20).
But there is another….

Below you see two Yodas. The left figure is the apple green Yoda, which was discussed before. The right figure was also bought from Spain but looks totally different. He has an olive green (grey) head. Both Yoda figures have the same COO#3.

Yodas from Spain: Apple green head (left), and olive green head (right).





In the pics below the olive head Yoda from Spain (at the right) is compared to two COO brothers which were bought from the US (at the left) and Germany (in the middle) respectively.

Yoda's with COO#3. Left: Kenner (dark head transformant). Middle: Kenner. Right: Figure from Spain.


Yoda's with COO#3. Left: Kenner (dark head transformant). Middle: Kenner. Right: Figure from Spain. ]


Yoda's with COO#3. Left: Kenner (dark head transformant). Middle: Kenner. Right: Figure from Spain.




Note here that Kenner figures having COO #3 are characterised by darker green paint on the hands and the feet. Moreover the plastic of the head has a greyish green (olive) colour which can be degraded to darker tones, even to the poop head transformant ( Very Happy ), shown above.

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4685-yoda-olive-head-with-hong-kong-coo3

Now let's have a look at the differences!

Compared to his Kenner COO brothers, the Yoda figure from Spain has:
- A darker grey head (compare right to middle figure), I am not sure whether this is a strong point, as the plastic of the head can degrade to darker tones (left figure), at least this is the case for Kenner figures.
- Light instead of dark green paint on hand and feet, this seems an unique feature.

Apart from paint differences the figure from Spain has some characteristics which we often encounter on POCH figures (but which are not POCH exclusive! ):
- A small meltmark (just above the belt cord at the back, can be seen on the pic)
- A partial crack at the bottom due to bad welding.

I didn't have a close look at the accessories. I included a pic of the cape, cane, belt, and snake.

What do you think, are we looking at a(nother) POCH variant here?

Do you have pics of Spanish Yoda's which look the same? Please share.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:18 pm

I don't have a problem with the prices put on sales. If people are willing to pay them, fair enough.

Deliberate mis-selling, on the other hand, I do have a problem with.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:55 am

I know this image is a recard, but the figure used has a part-painted wrist dart. Is the part-painted wrist dart a characteristic ONLY associated with Poch Boba's, or is it something seen across a broad range of variant COO's???



(Cardback image source : http://www.ffurg.com/FForums/index.php?showtopic=3455&mode=threaded&pid=30012)


Last edited by plantainman on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:18 pm



In case that bubble has been painstakingly mounted on a reproduction card by a certain ebay seller,, chances that is a POCH Fett are close to zero. Very Happy

More likely it is an oridinary Fett with a small paint error, I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:55 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:


In case that bubble has been painstakingly mounted on a reproduction card by a certain ebay seller,, chances that is a POCH Fett are close to zero. Very Happy

More likely it is an oridinary Fett with a small paint error, I guess.

I have edited my post to include the link to the original image source in case it helps.

I'm not bothered about the authenticity of the Fett inside, As you say it could be anything as the card is a reprint and then mounted.

I just wondered if anyone knew anything about Fetts with part-painted wrist darts. Other people must own them surely? Are they indicative of anything in particular or are they just a factory error that can be common across the board regardless of COO?

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:49 am

@plantainman wrote:


I just wondered if anyone knew anything about Fetts with part-painted wrist darts. Other people must own them surely? Are they indicative of anything in particular or are they just a factory error that can be common across the board regardless of COO?


I don't know. My guess is that it is a factory error.

You could post your question in the thread below, to get some more response.

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5261p30-is-this-a-variant-thread
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:59 am

Follow up from page 19: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427p270-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread

Below you see comparison pics between a Bossk from Spain and a Kenner Bossk, both having COO#1.
A POCH Bossk with COO#3 was also included to show the differences in the degree of green of the limbs (no green, brownish green, toxic green)


Bossk: Kenner COO#1 (left), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (middle), confirmed POCH Bossk with COO #3 (right).


Bossk: Kenner COO#1 (left), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (middle), confirmed POCH Bossk with COO #3 (right).


Bossk: Kenner COO#1 (left), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (middle), confirmed POCH Bossk with COO #3 (right).


Bossk: Kenner COO#1 (left), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (middle), confirmed POCH Bossk with COO #3 (right).




Compared to his Kenner brother, the Bossk from Spain has:

  • Greenish limbs. probably due to discolouration. Not so green as the confimred POCH Bossk though. ( see also http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/poch-variants/bossk/ )
  • Paler yellow limbs, probably also due to discolouration, Note that the Kenner version also has pale limbs, but less pronounced.
  • Small chest cross
  • Typical PBP smell
  • Bigger pupils
  • Darker red lips and eyes



This figure pops up in Spanish childhood collections and therefore it seems very likely that it was available in Spain during the 80s. To me this figure has clear differences compared to his Kenner brother.

I am curious what you think.



...here is a family shot.

From left to right:
- Kenner COO#1
- Figure from Spain COO#1
- POCH Boskk COO#3
- PBP Bossk COO#4




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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:55 am

From what I understood, the Cantina Aliens made their first appearance on 45/47 El Imperio Contraataca cards in Spain.



Source: http://www.starwarsspanishstuff.info

I was wondering what type of figures were released on these early cards. Different options are possible:

  1. Hong Kong figures with small paint differences. Possibly welded/painted in Spain like the confirmed early POCH figures on 37/41 backs: Class I/II Figures.
  2. Imported HK figures: Class IV figures.
  3. Spanish produced PBP Cantina Aliens with scarred COO: Class III Figures.
  4. A combination the above options



Today I received a Hong Kong Hammerhead from a Spanish childhood collection. The guy told me that he had received all SW and ESB characters from ESB cards when he was young (and ROTJ characters from ROTJ cards).

I had no reason to disbelieve him as many of his SW and ESB figures were indeed confirmed early POCH variants, which were released on ESB 37/41 backs.
So I thought this Hammerhead could therefore shed some more light on the topic.

Let's find out.....


Below I made some comparison shots.

Hammerhead: PBP scarred COO (left), Kenner HK COO (middle), Spanish childhood figure HK COO (right).


Hammerhead: PBP scarred COO (left), Kenner HK COO (middle), Spanish childhood figure HK COO (right).


Hammerhead: PBP scarred COO (left), Kenner HK COO (middle), Spanish childhood figure HK COO (right).



I don't know what you see, but I conclude there is no difference between the middle and right figure. This makes option 2 most valid at the moment.
It seems unlikely that PBP (POCH) welded/painted Hong Kong Hammerheads, like they did for (some of?) the characters which were released on the 37/41 backs. Probalby this extends to the other Cantina Aliens as well.

So statement to be tested:

PBP did not weld/paint any of the Hong Kong Cantina Aliens, instead these figures were being imported.

Later PBP produced their own Cantina Aliens (with scarred COO).


Curious what you think...

Does the statement hold? unsure




EDIT: It appears that the 45-backs already contained PBP's own produced figures (Class III).

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427p540-the-poch-pbp-Post-thread#99161


Last edited by Dr Dengar on Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:23 am

I also received a Luke X-Wing from the same childhood collection. It is the figure on the right in the pics below.

I am very pleased with him as his emblems are still very well conserved.

Luke X-Wing, from left to right:
- Kenner Hong Kong COO
- POCH Hong Kong COO
- POCH Hong Kong COO










Compared to his Kenner brother, the POCH Lukes have:
- Pale hands
- A bit darker orange skin of the face
- Different spray mask used for the chest device, e.g. the little red square in the top right corner.
- And a few other imperfections we don't talk about anymore. Cool

Read more in Wolff's guide: http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/poch-variants/luke-pilot/

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:15 am

I also received a Death Star Droid from the same Spanish childhood collection. I compared him to two Kenner DSDs having the same COO.

Might this be a early POCH droid, released on a 37/41 back?

Death Star Droid: Kenner COO#1 (left + middle), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (right).


Death Star Droid: Kenner COO#1 (left + middle), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (right).


Death Star Droid: Kenner COO#1 (left + middle), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (right).


Death Star Droid: Kenner COO#1 (left + middle), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (right).


Death Star Droid: Kenner COO#1 (left + middle), Figure from Spain with COO#1 (right).



Do you see any convincing differences? scratch

I don't.


Options:

  1. This is no POCH figure.
  2. POCH produced/welded/painted DSD figures do not exist at all, only imported HK figure which were put on El Imperio Contraataca cards.
  3. POCH produced/welded/painted DSD figures do exist, but there is no important difference compared to Kenner figures


What is the best option? unsure

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:35 am

I think I have to do it.

There is not enough money in the world to pay Dr Dengar for his effort to keep this threat running.

You are doing an incredible job and your collection is really on the top. CONGRATULATIONS

Sinceraly
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:48 am

A while ago I obtained a Tusken raider from a (different) Spanish childhood collection, which also contained a few confirmed early POCH figures.

Time for a comparison! Very Happy



Tusken Raider: Kenner (left + middle), Figure from Spain (right).


Tusken Raider: Kenner (left + middle), Figure from Spain (right).


Tusken Raider: Kenner (left + middle), Figure from Spain (right).


Tusken Raider: Kenner (left + middle), Figure from Spain (right).


Tusken Raider: Kenner (left + middle), Figure from Spain (right).


Tusken Raider: Kenner (left + middle), Figure from Spain (right).



The most obvious difference between the Tusken Raider from Spain and the Kenner figures is the colour of the bandolier. It is darkbrown with a strong hint of purple, almost eggplant colour. Though Kenner figures can differ very much (light/medium/dark brown bandoliers and gloves), I haven't seen this type of bandolier colour on any of my Kenner figures (I checked about 10).

Apart from the bandolier and a few obvious imperfections (which I won't mention to keep focus on paint differences Very Happy ), there are no much differences.
Also the cape looks like a regular Kenner to me, making typical zip sounds on one side.


Are we looking at a POCH figure here?


Wolff mentions a "slightly more reddish...or more violet..." colour of the bandolier for the POCH variant in his limelight.
The bandolier seems lighter in colour than mine, however. unsure

From : http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4350-anh-loose-figures-variants-bootlegs_wip

@wbobafett wrote:



12. Tusken


The Tusken is not so easy to describe. I havent had the time yet to make research on the mold differences and to sort out the mold-familys, but eh.....its nearly the same on all. Its about 2-3 familys...my guess is two, but havent checked! On one family (about 6 coos) you can find hollow tubes and all 4 maincolors.
- 4 different main colors are known to the Tusken: orangish brown, lightbrown, darkbrown and very darkbrown. These can be found on nearly all coos (besides the large copyright HK ones)
- The 5th figure is the actual Poch variant. His brown town is a bit different to all known versions...its slightly more reddish...or more violet...definatley different.


Let's discuss! cheers





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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:59 am

@ackbar100 wrote:
I think I have to do it.

There is not enough money in the world to pay Dr Dengar for his effort to keep this threat running.

You are doing an incredible job and your collection is really on the top. CONGRATULATIONS

Sinceraly

Thank you, much appreciated!! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:20 am

Here you are my DS Droid. IN MY OPINION, it could be a poch one. It has bad application with the painting -see black shoulders-, big mark on the head -I have seen this mark in poch darth vaders before- and melt marks on the back. On the face it has 2 black lines only in the front. My kenner one has painted the fron and one side with 2 lines.

I hope this helps.
















Last edited by ackbar100 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:27 am


Thank you for posting these pics, Ricardo. cheers

When we leave out the imperfections (like melt marks), I wonder which features might be distinctive for a possible POCH figure.

Also Kenner DSDs are notorious for their poor paint application. You only have to look at the paint and it is already gone. Very Happy
So poor paint application is not so strong difference.


However I see one thing which my and your DSD have in common. A very light paint application on the eyes. The eyes look more brownish than black, because the silver metal shines through the black paint.

None of my Kenner DSDs have this. they all have very black eyes, though the paint on the shoulders is sometimes poor.

Maybe that means something.... unsure


@ All: Are there more Spanish DSDs out there?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:41 am

You are right, Dr Dengar. Melt marks are not key in this but you have to consider the head mark as well seen it in other poch figures. Anyway, I have edited my post to avoid misunderstandings Smile

Please, could you check if your 2 kenner figures have painted 2 lines in one side of the face????

I don't know if it is important but my kenner figure is most detailed in the face than the poch?? one. Is the same in your figures??
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