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 THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE

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Dr Dengar
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Wed May 01, 2013 2:15 pm

@flycasual wrote:
Has anyone ever had a longer, leather textured cape come with a PBP scarred COO Vader?

A Vader having a scarred COO #8 appeared on PBP 65-backs, Palitoy 65-backs,....and in Clipper baggies without anything printed on them (opposed to the "Made in Macau" Clipper baggies).

Difficult to say where this Vader was produced, but I would put my money on Spain, not on an Asian factory.

The PBP/Clipper/Palitoy Vader comes with a thick "textured" cape, sometimes called leather cape or roguse cape. The cape has a little step on the edge.


Vaders: Left (COO#8 ): PBP, Palitoy, Clipper. Right: Lili Ledy.




@snaggletooth wrote:


These accessories are what I got from Alex out of a damaged Clipper Baggie he opened.


The back has a small leather pattern.


The inside has a smaller leather pattern and is lined




Source: javiswspain.


More here:
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t3603-are-either-of-these-clipper-darth-vader-figures
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t3346-darth-vador-in-baggie
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1092084/

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Wed May 01, 2013 3:59 pm

Thanks Dr. D. Smile

It's definitely the same material: the outside is leather textured and the inside is lined.

There is no "little step" on the edge though and the top is flat.

I didn't realise they were that much longer than "normal" ones.

RE: "Difficult to say where this Vader was produced, but I would put my money on Spain"
He certainly smells like other Spanish figures.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Wed May 01, 2013 4:57 pm

So the 'roguse' cape wasn't unique to just PBP and Cliper produced vaders? I thought that palitoy vaders had a long but smooth cape that doesn't make much of a zipping sound unsure
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Wed May 01, 2013 10:10 pm

@chris.75 wrote:
So the 'roguse' cape wasn't unique to just PBP and Cliper produced vaders?


The Vader with the scared COO#8 was probably produced by PBP, packaged on PBP 65-backs, and exported to be released on (some?) Palitoy 65-backs, and in some Clipper mail aways. So it is the same Vader in all cases, and I assumed with the same thick leather cape.



@chris.75 wrote:
I thought that palitoy vaders had a long but smooth cape that doesn't make much of a zipping sound

Not sure what you mean with Palitoy Vader? The one with COO#8 or another?








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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Wed May 01, 2013 10:16 pm

@flycasual wrote:


It's definitely the same material: the outside is leather textured and the inside is lined.

There is no "little step" on the edge though and the top is flat.


I hadn't noticed the flat top. Never seen that before, but I don't know too much about Vader capes.

Do you have another leather cape to compare the length?

My first guess: Maybe a wrong cut?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu May 02, 2013 12:34 am


Source: www.starwarsspanishstuff.info


Just wondering whether CCP, Black Bespin Guard, AT-AT Driver, and Luke Hoth appeared on the PBP 45 bacls.

If so, would these just have been imported figures with a Hong Kong COO? (Class IV)

Or figures which were entirely assembled from imported parts which were (painted and) welded by PBP? (Class II hybrids)

The last possibility seems unlikely at first but how else can you explain the existense of a hybrid CCP with a Hong Kong COO and a pale head (typical for later PBP production)?
Sure, there must have been a reason that loose HK parts were still laying around in the factory when production of the ROTJ figures started. Because these were imported before for making CCP figures for the 45 backs? unsure
Was this maybe a transition figure which was released on 45 backs? Before the PBP CCPs (with no COO and hard detialed body) took over?


@ackbar100 wrote:





Or is this one of the first PBP injection molded figures, using their own imported steel molds, before it was decided to remove the COOs?
Somehow the plastic does not look 'hard' enough for me like in regular PBP CCPs. But I might be wrong here. Ricardo?

Just some free thoughts, feel free to add yours here as well.






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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu May 02, 2013 2:31 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:
@chris.75 wrote:
So the 'roguse' cape wasn't unique to just PBP and Cliper produced vaders?


The Vader with the scared COO#8 was probably produced by PBP, packaged on PBP 65-backs, and exported to be released on (some?) Palitoy 65-backs, and in some Clipper mail aways. So it is the same Vader in all cases, and I assumed with the same thick leather cape.



@chris.75 wrote:
I thought that palitoy vaders had a long but smooth cape that doesn't make much of a zipping sound

Not sure what you mean with Palitoy Vader? The one with COO#8 or another?


Sorry marco, i meant the same coo#8 produced by PBP but i thought Palitoy provided a different cape. i must have misread your post on the LL discussion thread. I guess you were referring to the 'roguse' cape also in this case.


[quote]ACCESSORIES
The Ledy Vader came with a vinyl cape which differs from a Kenner cape in the following ways:
- 'smooth' feeling as it is made from more flexible vinyl. (Note that the Palitoy cape is also more flexible compared to a Kenner cape, but the feeling is different, more leather like.)
- absence of the typical 'zipping' sound when you scrape your finger against any side of the cape. (Note this is also the case for the Palitoy cape)
- the cape is shorter in length and the bigger sized arm holes are positioned a bit lower when compared to the Palitoy cape in the pic below. I didn't check this for the Kenner cape. Anyone?) [quote]



Hee hee sorry for being a dumb ass :I am stupid:
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu May 02, 2013 7:29 am

No worries Chris. And you are not a dumb ass for asking good questions.

I understand it can be a bit confusing. At the time I wrote the Darth Vader entry for the Ledy thread, I did not know that the Palitoy Vader with leather cape which you see there is the same type as can be seem on some PBP 65-backs and some Clipper baggies. So I just called him Palitoy Vader then, w/o mentioning the link to PBP or Clipper.

It took me some time before realizing this. I was the real dumb ass at that time. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu May 02, 2013 8:34 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:
@flycasual wrote:


It's definitely the same material: the outside is leather textured and the inside is lined.

There is no "little step" on the edge though and the top is flat.


I hadn't noticed the flat top. Never seen that before, but I don't know too much about Vader capes.

Do you have another leather cape to compare the length?

My first guess: Maybe a wrong cut?
It was probably the first off the sheet and was misaligned?

They are the only 2 Vader capes I have, sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu May 02, 2013 1:42 pm

@flycasual wrote:

It was probably the first off the sheet and was misaligned?


That sounds like a good explaination.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu May 02, 2013 2:41 pm

Just out of curiosity was the coo#9 vader an exclusive or was it found in Clipper baggies and on 65 backs/tri logos too? If so is there no PBP Vader exclusive other than the Poch one?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Thu May 02, 2013 2:55 pm

I am in POCH discussion mood today. Very Happy

Let's start with some pics from page 24:

@Dr Dengar wrote:
Follow up from page 20, where Kenneth and I were discussing a possible POCH Han Hoth:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427p285-the-poch-pbp-discussion-thread

Recently I received another Han from Spain.

In the pictures below he is put on the right side. In the middle you see the Han which was discussed before.











To me the middle and right Han look the same.

"Fat" eye brows: CHECK
Pale hands: CHECK
Pale neck: CHECK
Small belt buckle: CHECK
COO#1: CHECK

So I am 80% sure this is a POCH variant now. Only need MOC proof to confirm now.


For the moment ignore the POCH Han Solo figures, I would like to discuss the Han on the left with you a bit more.

The figure was obtained from a Spanish childhood collection. He has flesh/pink coloured hands and neck, and a big sprayed belt buckle. I am not sure but think that Kenner released the same figure, and talking to a well experienced variant collector, this was indeed confirmed. Thanks for that my friend! Very Happy

The previous owner claimed that he had bought all his figures on ESB cards.

Question: On what ESB card was this Han Solo released?

So what options do we have then? Let's see, we have 31, 41 A/B/C. or 45 backs.

I assume that the early 41A backs had the POCH Han with pale hands carded on them (no MOC pic available to illustrate)

The 41C backs had the PBP Han (no COO) carded on them (see MOC picture below). So it would make sense that also the later released 45 backs had the PBP version Han (again no MOC pic available to illustrate).
BTW: At first glance it may look like a POCH Han with pale hands was carded on the 41C back below. But in fact it is a PBP Han with pale hands, which is proven by the presence of a big sprayed beltbuckle!! (Recall that the POCH Han Solo has a small sprayed belt buckle. Kudos to Wolff for pointing to this Very Happy )


Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info


Back to the question, on what type of ESB card did the original owner buy the Han Solo with pink hands? unsure
  • 41A, 41C, or 45-back: No, no, and no.
  • 41B: Possible, not sure.
  • 31: Unlikely, as the current theory states that these cards contained the "pure" POCH figures like the 41A backs.




Hey, wait a minute, what is that....


Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info


A 31-back MOC.......................Han Solo.......with pink hands, pink neck,.... big sprayed belt buckle..................looking exactly like the Spanish childhood Han Solo figure!! cheers
The guy was right, he (or his mom) probably bought this figure on a 31-back.

So the 31 backs seem to have contained figures, which look very much alike (are the same as) some Kenner figures, at least in the case for Han Solo. Probably this figure was imported from Asia and put on a 31-back by PBP..


So we have our answer now. But a lot of new questions. Very Happy
  • How about the other 31 backs? Did they also contain imported figures?
  • Does this mean that the pure POCH figures were first released with the 41A backs?


Just some free thoughts, which could explain all this:
  • First PBP imported a few figures from Asia to test the market with 31 backs: Class IV figures (imported figures)
  • After a succesfull trial PBP decided to go into production themself in a stepwise approach:
  • Step 1. Importing unpainted parts from Asia and learn to paint and weld them: Class I figures ('pure POCH')
  • Step 2: After a while also painted parts were imported from Asia to meet the undercapacity/underperformance(?) of the painting facilities: Class II figures ('hybrid POCH')
  • Step 3: Sales went well and PBP decided to carry out the full production (plastic injection molding, painting, welding) with the release of the new ROTJ movie: Class III figures ('PBP').



Feel free to add your thoughts....
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Fri May 03, 2013 3:10 am

Some awesome detective work there marco, and really nicely explained for newcomers like me. Well done mate.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Fri May 03, 2013 8:20 am

@chris.75 wrote:
Some awesome detective work there marco, and really nicely explained for newcomers like me. Well done mate.

Thanks Chris. Very Happy

It is good to emphasize here that the theory of imported Asian figures on POCH 31 cards is only based upon one loose Spanish childhood figure and a picture of a 31 back MOC with a similar (same?) figure.

One result is no result, so we need more evidence to test this little theory.


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Fri May 03, 2013 10:17 am

@chris.75 wrote:
Some awesome detective work there marco, and really nicely explained for newcomers like me. Well done mate.

great work as always Marco Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Fri May 03, 2013 2:31 pm

Still in the POCH mood today. Very Happy


Below two Kenner Ugnaught figures are compared to one which came from Spain.

From left to right:
1) Kenner, COO #1, Normal hands
2) Kenner, COO #1, Faded hands,
3) Ugnaught from Spain, COO#7.














Compared to his Kenner brothers, the Ugnaught from Spain has:
- A head which is cast in a paler plastic
- Smaller pupils
- Pale hands.

Note: A Kenner figure with faded hands was included in the comparison to demonstrate that the pale hand colour of the Spanish Ugnaught is different from faded (discoloured) Kenner hands.

Here some solo pics of the Spanish Ugnaught.



Don’t know about you, but to me this figure looks like a Class I PBP figure (“early POCH”).

Please share your Spanish Ugnaughts here, so we can check for similarities/differences.

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Fri May 03, 2013 4:22 pm

Below you see an interesting Luke Farmboy line-up.

From left to right:
1) Kenner, COO #1 (2 line HK), brown hair
2) Figure from Spain, COO #1 (2 line HK), brown hair
3) Confirmed POCH, COO #6 (3 line HK), blond hair







The figure in the middle is interesting and has a lot of POCH characteristics in common with the confirmed POCH Luke on the right:
- Pale hands
- Pale neck
- Greenish brown boots.

BTW: The same greenish brown boots can also be seen on the two Spanish Leia Hoth figures (one confirmed and one assumed POCH).

From left to right: 1. Leia (Kenner). 2. Leia (from Spain). 3. POCH Leia. 4. POCH Luke (not a DT saber BTW, just a broken tip Very Happy).




But there are also some clear differences between the middle figure and the POCH Luke on the right.....





First the different COO. (2 line HK vs 3 line HK). How to explain that? unsure

Actually it makes sense assuming PBP imported unpainted overstock from Asia from different factories. Each factory used their own pair of molds marked with their own COOs. Eventually plastic parts originating from different Asian factories got mixed up in the PBP factory and after painting these were welded into complete figures.
This would explain why some POCH figures can appear with two different HK COOs on different figures (sometimes even on the same figure). Luke Farmboy would not be the only example. Think Leia Hoth, and Jawa which were discussed before.


The second and most obvious difference is off course the head, which looks totally different (brown vs blond hair and different facial details, plastic).
Is this a POCH head, like the blond head?

Probably not! Take a look at the head of the Kenner figure on the left. Dark hair colour, facial details, even the mark on the left of the head (probably a mold defect), it all matches!
Probably this head was already painted in Asia before being exported as overstock to PBP. That’s why it has Kenner characteristics and not POCH characteristics. During the welding process this head was assembled with parts that (assumption!) were painted in house (arms, torso, legs, all with POCH traits) to end up in this Class II PBP figure (‘hybrid POCH’).

Kenner (left), Spanish (right).



OK, time for a wrap up: Very Happy
To me it seems that the brown hair Spanish Luke is a Class II PBP figure, having features of Kenner (head) and POCH (the rest).

What's more::
1) Assuming that the 2 line HK COO parts were present and painted in the PBP factory, I can imagine that there also exists a blond POCH Luke with this COO. Time will tell. Very Happy
2) This is not a one of a kind figure. A very similar figure was offered for sale on a Spanish website about a year ago. It was offered at that time with the original cardback, a 41A back.
3) It appears that the 41A backs were not only used for the Class I (pure POCH) figures. At least in case of this brown hair Luke, it seems that Class II figures (hybrid POCH) could also be packed on these early cards (and not first on 41B/C cards).


Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat May 04, 2013 5:55 am

I made some compariosn pics of my Ben figures from Spain with a Kenner figure.

The Kenner Ben is always on the left. The other figures (one or two) are Ben figures bought from Spain.

















Compared to his Kenner brother, the Ben figures from Spain have:
- a very thin light grey hair paint application, it almost looks a bit transparant.
- a pale face
- pale hands

The cape seems to be the same as a Kenner cape (colour, texture, and feeling). Not a surprise as I assume all accessories where imported from Asia as well (like I assume for the figure parts).

Note that the Kenner Ben has a different COO, so the comparison can be a bit different when comparing to a Kenner figure having the exact same COO.


The same figure sems to be carded on the 41A example below:


Source: starwarsspanishstuff.info


Wrap up: To me both Ben figures look like Class I PBP figures ("pure POCH"). How about you?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Sat May 04, 2013 6:01 am

I also have a Ben which I bought via ebay from a Spanish seller last year. He has all the characteristics like the two Spanish Bens in the previous post, but his hair is painted very white.
I am not sure whether it is factory applied, it might very well be a custom job. If you look carfully, you can see there is grey paint underneath.
In the pics you see him at the right, on the left is the normal Spanish Ben (assumed to be POCH).










Curious what you think about this Ben.

Just a POCH figure with a custom paint job by a creative Spanish kid who liked his Ben figure better this way?

Please share your pics if you have a similar painted Ben.


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Mon May 06, 2013 5:26 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:
Still in the POCH mood today. Very Happy


Below two Kenner Ugnaught figures are compared to one which came from Spain.

From left to right:
1) Kenner, COO #1, Normal hands
2) Kenner, COO #1, Faded hands,
3) Ugnaught from Spain, COO#7.




Compared to his Kenner brothers, the Ugnaught from Spain has:
- A head which is cast in a paler plastic
- Smaller pupils
- Pale hands.

Note: A Kenner figure with faded hands was included in the comparison to demonstrate that the pale hand colour of the Spanish Ugnaught is different from faded (discoloured) Kenner hands.


Don’t know about you, but to me this figure looks like a Class I PBP figure (“early POCH”).

Please share your Spanish Ugnaughts here, so we can check for similarities/differences.

Cheers


Sorry for my delay, Dr Dengar. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Here you are pics of my Poch Ugnaught


On the left hand, poch figure / on the right kenner one







Compared to his Kenner brothers, the Ugnaught from Spain has:
- A head which is cast in a paler plastic: OK
- Smaller pupils. I CAN NOT CONFIRM THIS
- Pale hands. OK
- Non sonic welded, OK IN MY CASE


cheers
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue May 07, 2013 1:32 pm

Hi Dr Dengar,

you go faster than me :-)

Here you are my poch obi wan

Poch figure on the left / kenner figure on the right.












- As the ugnaught poch figure face is paler than kenner one
- clear grey hair in the poch one
- melt marks in the back
- pale hands on the poch one
- cape: Poch one has a peak on the top -see picture- EDITED. Sorry, I don't have more kenner obi wan's to compare. So I can not extrapolate to all figures.


I hope you like it.


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue May 07, 2013 2:06 pm

Hi Ricardo, great that you gave feedback by posting pics of your Spanish Ugnaught and Ben. Much appreciated! Very Happy

Both your Ugnaught and Ben have the same features as the figures which I posted. This is a good sign, they are indeed POCH!


@ackbar100 wrote:





- cape: Poch one has a peak on the top -see picture-


I will have to check some of my Kenner capes. I can imagine Kenner capes can have a pointed top as well? unsure Maybe others can chime in here as well...

I will also check the cape which came with my POCH Ben.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue May 07, 2013 6:32 pm

Blobbed out COO Vader from Spain:
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue May 07, 2013 11:16 pm


Great find, FC! Very Happy

Lee was looking for other collectors having this Vader with blobbed out COO. (on page 20).

@Lee_m wrote:
While there is vader discussion going on i thought i'd add this little known spanish vader variant and my thoughts on him.

Those old skool variant collectors that are around will remember Uli's cool little pbp guide he did a few years ago. Now, in it, he showed
a spanish vader with unique coo that he had managed to find three examples of only in spain and believed it to be an unconfirmed
pbp variant.

Now, in the many years of having many many vader coo's pass through my hands i have never found or seen an identical coo to
Uli's example until recently, i managed to get one in a spanish lot with other pbp figures.

Check out the pictures - the coo is totally unique. The 'H' remains and the rest is blobbed out, NOT scarred out like other vader coo's.

The cape has the little factory 'cut' or 'step' in it like other no coo spanish and european vaders. The saber is more orange in colour like
others i have seen on spanish figures also.

Tell me if anyone else also has this vader coo and moreso was it acquired in spain.

Now i have one in hand to compare to Uli's example i truly beleive in a unique to pbp variant and not found anywhere else.

Tell me what you think...



How did you acquire this Vader? From a Spanish lot/seller?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE   Tue May 07, 2013 11:52 pm

Nice find with the blobbed CoO Vader.
I wasnt aware of the CoO, thanks for showing it.
One more to look out for.
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THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD - PART ONE

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