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 Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!

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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:18 am

I think it is also a bit a language problem here??

I myself had problems to really get the thing with the orange/beige cape!

Ozio wanted a custom in beige to proof they (the makers of the fakes) can make everything you like!
If he had wanted a blue one they would have made a blue one!

The beige one is clearly a fake of course because the color is off. It has nothing to do with a burgundy LL cape, but proofs:
- These are actually made today!
- These can be made by order!
- The stitch technique seems near perfect!
- The armpit cuts were corrected!

So to summarize: I am afraid now to check mine! If I only would have kept my beater I had for almost 15 years! It really was rocked down but at least it was 100% original!

Since years these pop up in better and better conditions....wired...isn't it? I only saw capes with wear between 2000 and 2010.....just saying....there could be hundreds on the market, cased, loose, graded...etc!

Ozio really spend some money to get his hands on some samples to make it public and to work out differences. He is now an authority on those capes! Kudos! Well done my friend! A big thanks form the community!
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:39 pm

Edit: Removed by author. -CSlave


Last edited by CorporateSlave on Thu May 01, 2014 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:51 pm

You used our help against us, that's no nice at all. Look at you even now after all the information shared with you, you still don't talk about the red stitches, or the beige cape, both very strong evidence against that cape of yours sold by your very friendly seller best buddy of all times.

At what point you did back pedaled? Even now whit this reply you are picturing the seller of a FAKE cape like a cool guy, willing to refund you at any moment and us, the guys helping you, we are the responsible of 'frustrated and belligerent responses, accusing you of having no respect, being ungrateful, and unjustly questioning the authors of the topic'

Now the good guy here on your book is the guy who sold you a fake cape? This type of comments are so offensive and you don't even realize, you are turning your back on the help given and now you are describing the seller of a FAKE cape as a polite and reasonable guy?

This evidence was gladly shared with the seller of your fake cape, I showed him the red stitches cape, we talked about it but funny it was no good enough for him, just as all the pictures and info shared with you are not good enough for you, what a coincidence.

AGAIN... you keep talking about color balance and photos but you don't comment anything on the strong evidence against your fake cape, are you still going to ignore it? No even now with the opinion of such a strong expert as Wolff?

Sorry for not trusting you at all anymore, right now you still sound like someone involved on those fake capes even more than before, you are talking about how rude we are for helping you and how cool and patient the seller of a fake cape is.... scratch 

Your cape is just an example of many, many fake capes sold since 2010 all over the place, ebay, RS, even here on TIG. Hundreds of fake capes, at some point we didn't knew it was a fake, now we know and just to stop all this arguments about color balance, cheap cameras and bad attitude from us, this beige cape was made by the same source of that fake cape of yours:



Last edited by OZIO on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:30 pm

Corperateslave, mate id be taking Ozio's advice and ident on this above Tom's any day, im not bad mouthing Tom, but theres no way he knows more about these than Ozio, your speaking to the best in the business when it comes to LL here with ozio, you should be very thankful he is giving you his time and helping you out.
cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:33 pm

@AussieFortuna wrote:
Corperateslave, mate id be taking Ozio's advice and ident on this above Tom's any day, im not bad mouthing Tom, but theres no way he knows more about these than Ozio, your speaking to the best in the business when it comes to LL here with ozio, you should be very thankful he is giving you his time and helping you out.
cheers

I agree with you 100%.... Honestly Im amazed that somebody we help now is against us (we didnt charge anything.. it was for free)  and now  he is defending somebody who sold him a Fake and not happy with that , he will send the LLBFBC to AFA ( and spend more money)... I can't understand that. 

Is funny,  this guy also ask for my opinion, even though ozio already told him it was fake, with the same exact result with even NOT  knowing he already asked Ozio
It just took me 5 seconds (literally ) to know it was a fake... honestly when I compare them (Ozio knows how I compare them).... you can see the differences in seconds.... gladly I didnt send any pics to this guy.

Strange is to me that this guy keeps asking what are the main differences.....

Dude is fake!!!... do you want us tell the counterfeiters how to them perfectly????

We should just go on with this important thread to warn everybody about the amount of fakes out there  and lets  stop wasting our valuble time with this pseudo member!
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:34 pm

Hi Guys, here's a bit of information about these fake capes I hope it help us a bit more.
First of all, some general information.
Fake burgundy capes are available since 2004 probably earlier, on 2010 the amount of fake capes increased terribly so now we can count them on hundreds.
Original Burgundy capes are very hard to find, almost impossible, even original LL Cloud Pilot Communicators are easy to find compared to an original burgundy cape, so why so many of them are available? Because they are fake.

2004 or earlier, first fake capes available:

Easy to spot, color is way off, it has cuts under the arm pits, cape is too big, still a nice custom.

2004-2008

Easy to spot, color is too dark, fabric used was to thin.

2010

High quality fakes, material is very close to the original, it has red stitches and cuts under the arm pits.

2010-11
Stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone, many of us thought these were originals, but some events raised the alarm, capes emerging on high numbers, many mint capes among them, sellers with 4 or more capes available at once, loose green original capes for sale from the same sellers offering burgundy capes :clap: loose mint capes for sale on ebay and many more events:


2011-14
Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look a bit damage, as new mint capes looked suspicious these became available:


2011-14
Each time more damaged. Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look damaged:


2011-14
And more. Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look pretty damaged:


To spot a fake burgundy cape only through pictures is very hard, only with the help of experience after looking at many samples through many years this task becomes possible, here's a high quality custom made of a different color, same source of those fake capes:


Apart from the color it has the same quality as those burgundy fake capes.

So if you are buying a burgundy cape just keep in mind that fakes are available since 2004 and the guys making these have now a 10 years experience on the job, so if you are going to buy one now you WILL get a custom cape. I honestly recommend you to avoid burgundy capes and if you want one you should pay what you think a custom cape is worth. In order to gather all this information, many samples have being examined, custom capes, original green cape samples, fake samples, burgundy squids, prior 2000 original samples, prior 2000 damaged original samples and a carded example kindly offered by Merlin (Thanks for the chance to analyze such a rare and valuable LL item buddy).

I hope this information helps you somehow, Cheers!
OZIO


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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:11 am

Hi Ozio :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:17 pm

Edit: Removed by author. -CSlave


Last edited by CorporateSlave on Thu May 01, 2014 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:42 pm

Hi Guys, here's a bit of information about these fake capes I hope it help us a bit more.
First of all, some general information.
Fake burgundy capes are available since 2004 probably earlier, on 2010 the amount of fake capes increased terribly so now we can count them on hundreds.
Original Burgundy capes are very hard to find, almost impossible, even original LL Cloud Pilot Communicators are easy to find compared to an original burgundy cape, so why so many of them are available? Because they are fake.

2004 or earlier, first fake capes available:

Easy to spot, color is way off, it has cuts under the arm pits, cape is too big, still a nice custom.

2004-2008

Easy to spot, color is too dark, fabric used was to thin.

2010

High quality fakes, material is very close to the original, it has red stitches and cuts under the arm pits.

2010-11
Stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone, many of us thought these were originals, but some events raised the alarm, capes emerging on high numbers, many mint capes among them, sellers with 4 or more capes available at once, loose green original capes for sale from the same sellers offering burgundy capes :clap: loose mint capes for sale on ebay and many more events:


2011-14
Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look a bit damage, as new mint capes looked suspicious these became available:


2011-14
Each time more damaged. Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look damaged:


2011-14
And more. Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look pretty damaged:


To spot a fake burgundy cape only through pictures is very hard, only with the help of experience after looking at many samples through many years this task becomes possible, here's a high quality custom made of a different color, same source of those fake capes:


Apart from the color it has the same quality as those burgundy fake capes.

So if you are buying a burgundy cape just keep in mind that fakes are available since 2004 and the guys making these have now a 10 years experience on the job, so if you are going to buy one now you WILL get a custom cape. I honestly recommend you to avoid burgundy capes and if you want one you should pay what you think a custom cape is worth. In order to gather all this information, many samples have being examined, custom capes, original green cape samples, fake samples, burgundy squids, prior 2000 original samples, prior 2000 damaged original samples and a carded example kindly offered by Merlin (Thanks for the chance to analyze such a rare and valuable LL item buddy).

I hope this information helps you somehow, Cheers!
OZIO
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:28 am

Sounds like questing after a legitimate LLBCBF is pretty futile. This disheartening, as this is all I needed to consider my loose collection complete to my satisfaction. Sad

Ozio, have you ever sold authentic burgundy Bibs here before? Sorry, I'm a new member, so I thought I'd ask. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:32 pm

@Roddy_Laufeyson wrote:
Sounds like questing after a legitimate LLBCBF is pretty futile. This disheartening, as this is all I needed to consider my loose collection complete to my satisfaction. Sad

Ozio, have you ever sold authentic burgundy Bibs here before? Sorry, I'm a new member, so I thought I'd ask. Smile


Yes it is a very hard quest.
I used to collect LL, I sold a big part of my collection through the years, original Burgundy Bib included. Right now I don't have any available and to be honest with you I really doubt I will get one again.

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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:11 pm

@CorporateSlave wrote:
Ok, I think there might be a case of cultural difference and/or misunderstanding due to the inherent difficulty I seem to be having using the written word to convey accurately what I am trying to explain.

Let me state a few things first you guys (Ozio and merlin, for the most part):

1) After all the help you gave me initially, even after the doubts the seller put in my mind, and after doing more research on my own and reading your further posts on the subject, I believe you and think you are right about this.  

2) I apologize that my posts offended you and made you think I was "turning against you" somehow.  I don't have 1% of the expertise you have, and in my family expressing doubts are second nature, so I wanted to say publicly any new doubts I had because I was CONFIDENT you would have answers for me that would also head off any doubts that any other collectors might have in the future, if they could read my questions here and read your replies to them.

3)From my perspective, my concerns are past the capes at this point, which I think you're right about, but I'm still surprised at how cold the reception here got for this new guy once he had the audacity to try to dig any deeper and clarify some concerns he had.  It seems to me that any of the doubts expressed could have been quickly and courteously addressed with a sentence or two, instead of all the irritation and accusations that resulted instead.

Reading back on what I wrote, I got really confused about why there seemed to be this idea that I was trying to defend the cape I had as real.  I never said that anywhere, it was the seller who assured me it was real, and he mentioned he had talked to you about it and patiently explained to me why he wasn't convinced by what you told him.  He made some points that included some information that frankly I felt was a little too detailed to post publicly here, so I was trying to remove any doubt in my mind that you guys were right by asking the questions/expressing the concerns/doubts that I had.  Maybe I did not explain this well, but it seems a lot of things I wrote got taken very out of context and thrown back in my face, such as:

@OZIO wrote:
just don't use those big names in vain I respect Luis Galvez a LOT so let's see if he backs up your cape.

All I wrote was:

@CorporateSlave wrote:
... I do see a slight difference in the color between the one I have and both the MOC copy merlin has, as well as an online photo of one credited to Josephina and Luiz Galvez, who I understand are something of Lili Ledy experts in their own right.  But then again my seller tells me the one I was sold matches one he bought from the Galvezs' as authentic in the past.

I don't understand "in vain?"  I Googled a photo on the internet, it said the photo was of an item that was the property of Josephina and Luiz Galvez.  I also mentioned that the seller has bought from them in the past.  Nowhere ever can I find me saying I thought they were saying my cape was real.  In fact:

@CorporateSlave wrote:
...with the disclosure that I have not spoken with either party regarding my cape or any other.

Never said they would authenticate my cape, or thought they would?  I did say I, with my limited experience, thought the color match looked fairly close, but that was all.  Granted a subjective opinion, but what do you want me to say?  It did look fairly close to me!  I even went on to say that it was close but not 100%, and that I realize it was just a photo.

@OZIO wrote:
You used our help against us, that's no nice at all.

I don't even understand where a comment like this came from?  Is this part of a cultural difference?  I was questioning some things but I can't find anywhere in any of my posts where I was using anything against you guys?  I don't recall ever saying you were stupid, or dishonest, or that I had any kind of proof that you were wrong or that your expertise was not valuable.

@OZIO wrote:
Even now whit this reply you are picturing the seller of a FAKE cape like a cool guy, willing to refund you at any moment and us, the guys helping you, we are the responsible of 'frustrated and belligerent responses, accusing you of having no respect, being ungrateful, and unjustly questioning the authors of the topic'

Now the good guy here on your book is the guy who sold you a fake cape? This type of comments are so offensive and you don't even realize, you are turning your back on the help given and now you are describing the seller of a FAKE cape as a polite and reasonable guy?

Well, the fact does remain that even after I accused him of selling me a high-dollar fake item, he didn't get upset or tell me "Hey prove it buddy," he was very polite.  He was also very reasonable, explaining why he thought it was not fake, but still offering a refund if I wasn't happy with the figure.  I'm sorry if me writing that here is offensive to you - but that is what happened!  What was I supposed to do?  Lie about how he acted?  Let him say he is sorry I'm not happy and offer my money back no hassles, then come right back to TIG and lie, telling everyone that he is calling me names, accusing me of things, demanding more proof and not giving me a refund?  

I said he was polite...because he was polite!  

In contrast, I got comments from "the guys helping me" like:

@merlin wrote:
Buddy. .. making long story short as Im not as patient as Ozio is..

Maybe another cultural gap, but where I am from that is exactly the sort of thing you say while pressing your finger into someone's chest right before you punch them in the face.  It has very rude connotations, and given the context I don't think he meant otherwise.

@OZIO wrote:
AGAIN... you keep talking about color balance and photos but you don't comment anything on the strong evidence against your fake cape, are you still going to ignore it? No even now with the opinion of such a strong expert as Wolff?

I kept talking about it because instead of just answering my question, you guys got mad and started berating me for questioning you.  I never said I was ignoring the evidence you showed me, and I never was.  I like to have the best evidence I can though, and two color balanced photos where the capes don't match is better than two non-color balanced photos where the capes don't match, don't you think?  I kept talking about it because since I didn't get an answer I thought I needed to explain what I was saying better.  I don't comment on the strong evidence because I didn't think any of that evidence is incorrect.

@OZIO wrote:
you are talking about how rude we are for helping you

I wasn't talking about how rude you were for helping me, I am really not sure why you would say that, maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough.  I can find (and already referenced in another post) many times I thanked you both for your help.  But you guys did get rather curt with me when I wrote out the things I would have like further clarification about, instead of just answering directly.  From your further posts, it is pretty clear you had good answers for the things I said, and without giving away any secrets (another thing I got accused of asking for, despite that I never did - and even said I didn't expect to have given away to me).  

Maybe one more cultural difference, but to me that came across as very rude behavior, from the experts I thought were trying to help me (and everyone else with a fake) to know the truth.  Like I said I was shocked because it was how I was expecting the seller to reply to me accusing him of selling a fake, not how I was expecting the experts to reply to me asking for more clarification of doubts that had developed in my mind.

So.

In summary, sorry I pissed you guys off, I have no doubts you are among the world's definitive experts on the Lili Ledy of action figures.  Your contributions to TIG and your references speak most highly and I can't say I disagree.

It wasn't my intent, but clearly I did offend you, for that I apologize.

I do appreciate all the help you gave me, both directly and indirectly, thank you both.

I will try to hold off expressing any doubts or concerns in the future since I don't seem very good at discussing them without offending people.

-CSlave


Hi mate, i agree with you i think theres been a bit of a communication breakdown in this thread, and i realise it must be hard when you buy something thinking its legit only to find out its fake, i would want to get plenty of opinions too, maybe everybody has got their backs up in this thread for the wrong reasons.
For the record i dont think youve used anybodies names against others nor do i think youve been rude or anything like that, but just remember you have asked the advice of Ozio and merlin who are experts in this field, they might have got their backs up because they thought you had asked for advice and wernt listening.

So for the good of everybody maybe it would be good t start a fresh with each other in this thread.

cheers and happy days.
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Thu May 01, 2014 2:07 pm

No harm intended. Let's focus on what we know, probably if we share it we can finally stop this fakes. Just as AussieFortuna said no one likes to find a fake inside our collections, so just, please consider the information shared here:

Hi Guys, here's a bit of information about these fake capes I hope it help us a bit more.
First of all, some general information.
Fake burgundy capes are available since 2004 probably earlier, on 2010 the amount of fake capes increased terribly so now we can count them on hundreds.
Original Burgundy capes are very hard to find, almost impossible, even original LL Cloud Pilot Communicators are easy to find compared to an original burgundy cape, so why so many of them are available? Because they are fake.

2004 or earlier, first fake capes available:

Easy to spot, color is way off, it has cuts under the arm pits, cape is too big, still a nice custom.

2004-2008

Easy to spot, color is too dark, fabric used was to thin.

2010

High quality fakes, material is very close to the original, it has red stitches and cuts under the arm pits.

2010-11
Stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone, many of us thought these were originals, but some events raised the alarm, capes emerging on high numbers, many mint capes among them, sellers with 4 or more capes available at once, loose green original capes for sale from the same sellers offering burgundy capes  :clap:  loose mint capes for sale on ebay and many more events:


2011-14
Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look a bit damage, as new mint capes looked suspicious these became available:


2011-14
Each time more damaged. Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look damaged:


2011-14
And more. Great quality fakes, stitches and cuts under the armpits are gone and they look pretty damaged:


To spot a fake burgundy cape only through pictures is very hard, only with the help of experience after looking at many samples through many years this task becomes possible, here's a high quality custom made of a different color, same source of those fake capes:


Apart from the color it has the same quality as those burgundy fake capes.

So if you are buying a burgundy cape just keep in mind that fakes are available since 2004 and the guys making these have now a 10 years experience on the job, so if you are going to buy one now you WILL get a custom cape. I honestly recommend you to avoid burgundy capes and if you want one you should pay what you think a custom cape is worth. In order to gather all this information, many samples have being examined, custom capes, original green cape samples, fake samples, burgundy squids, prior 2000 original samples, prior 2000 damaged original samples and a carded example kindly offered by Merlin (Thanks for the chance to analyze such a rare and valuable LL item buddy).

I hope this information helps you somehow, Cheers!
OZIO
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:46 pm

Hi, I'm new here and I'm from Germany.
I am interested in buying a LL Bib with Burgundy coat.
I have now read it here from top to bottom and I can still not be sure. The seller is from Mexico and he says have this figure of someone that he knows of this figure again since childhood .... here comes some Pictures ... to me looks like a real one, but what says the experts in here?
I would be very grateful for the help.



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:35 am

Yeap.. that LL BF bugrundy cape is from Jose Arceniga, right?
For me is legit.
Of all those pics, one can confirm it without a doubt.
hope that info was helpful
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:44 am

Ok...im confused now. I have a bib cape that looks exactly like the one the German guy posted and was told "sorry...most likley a fake" ok, I trust Ozio as I've bought from him in the past (the Bib was not from him) but when i sent him pics of my Bib, which I can trace back to big time "famous" collector in Mexico he was under the opinion that mine was fake?

Not really sure what to think anymore???
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:19 am

Thanks "Merlin", yes its from Jose Very Happy
How do you can confirm this one is original about my pics?
Maybe send me an PM, what are the points were i can identify?
I trust youre eyes, you can compare to the MOC, and i also send the Pics to Oizo, but he got no time at now.

It would be interesstig to me were the points are, that make it a original one,...
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:21 am

@HughJorgan wrote:
Ok...im confused now.  I have a bib cape that looks exactly like the one the German guy posted and was told "sorry...most likley a fake"  ok, I trust Ozio as I've bought from him in the past (the Bib was not from him) but when i sent him pics of my Bib, which I can trace back to big time "famous" collector in Mexico he was under the opinion that mine was fake?  

Not really sure what to think anymore???

yeah from the pictures i send i first think the cape looks to dark? But i never had one another so its hard to compare on pics... but the stitching looks right...

One more question on Merlin, the regular coat with the Burgundy can be compared? Do the same material?
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:14 pm

Sadly I am dealing with one of these right now. I will post pictures when I can.
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:52 pm

Sorry to hear that. These coats are tricky to identify. Are you Matt (seerdrakon) on rs? I hope you get things worked out.

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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:32 pm

@trappedtexan wrote:
Sorry to hear that.  These coats are tricky to identify.  Are you Matt (seerdrakon) on rs?  I hope you get things worked out.


Yup..that is me. Very Happy It is pretty frustrating to say the least. Hopefully things will get figured out.


This sucks but this robe looks exactly like one of the ones on this thread. Thank you guys for creating the thread.

Texan...what is your name on RS?
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:46 pm

Same user name everywhere. Real name is Bryan. Hope it gets sorted out. I don't know who the original seller was, but really Tim should of refunded and then he should pursue the refund from his source. It looks like a mess though as he seems to have washed his hands of it. Hope it gets sorted. Sucks your out on AFA fees also.

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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:15 am





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PostSubject: Re: Fake Burgundy Cape Bib Fortuna, They are everywhere!   Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:05 am

Thanks James.
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