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 THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2

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Dr Dengar
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PostSubject: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:48 pm

****


Part 1 of this thread can be found here: The POCH / PBP Guide & Discussion Thread Part 1

THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2



Artwork - Ozio
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:49 pm

Leia Bespin Family (2 line COO stamp) continued from the THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 1....

Kenneth, yes, I completely agree it is much rarer than the the family 1 (2 leg/4 line COO stamp)!

I don't own a cape like you have shown me yet but here are the pics.

It definitely appears to be have much larger arm holes than any other capes I have seen. I'd love to see it in person... maybe Celebration Anaheim? Rolling Eyes Smile

Here are Kenneth's pics of the cape from the Leia Bespin family 2 figure he has.




The comparison pic shows the standard POCH Leia cape on the left (family 1) which has narrow arm holes by default, but not that much more than the other known ones. The one on the right certainly appears to have much larger arm holes in the pic.
Also note that it is a different pattern/version (v2 on the left / v3 on the right).

cheers!
Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:25 am

psybertech wrote:
Leia Bespin Family (2 line COO stamp) continued from the THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 1....

Kenneth, yes, I completely agree it is much rarer than the the family 1 (2 leg/4 line COO stamp)!

I don't own a cape like you have shown me yet but here are the pics.

It definitely appears to be have much larger arm holes than any other capes I have seen. I'd love to see it in person... maybe Celebration Anaheim? Rolling Eyes Smile

Here are Kenneth's pics of the cape from the Leia Bespin family 2 figure he has.




The comparison pic shows the standard POCH Leia cape on the left (family 1) which has narrow arm holes by default, but not that much more than the other known ones. The one on the right certainly appears to have much larger arm holes in the pic.
Also note that it is a different pattern/version (v2 on the left / v3 on the right).

cheers!
Very Happy
Comparing the one I have with Kenneth´s cape, the size of the arm holes seems to be quite similar or identical.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:28 am

I can post pictures of my capes too, I got two leia poch at home at the moment. let me know

here are some figures I got from spain from non collectors. they looks poch to me, please let me know what you think




melt mark in the back






melt mark in the neck and right shoulder


pale hand


bad sonic weldding and discolored pant, crack in the neck in front


melt mark in the neck


bad sonnic welding


melt mark on right shoulder


melt mark on left leg


luke has pale hands and neck, discolored limbs, greenish pants, crack in the back of the neck, melt mark in the back


leia has melt mark in the back

there was two other figs with this lot: han pale hands small bucket and snowy with the mark on right shoulder. I say that as another argument because poch figs often comes in group Smile


this yoda is from another seller. I was wondering if the color of the head is due to exposure to the light? it has brownish mark on head. also has melt marks on coo and in the back, bubbles on paintings of the hand...








this vader is from another seller non collector who already sold me a poch snowy. It has a different coo than the other one. bad sonic welding, mark on the head, mark in the back, cracks on torso i front and back, uge penis Smile


















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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:32 am

PBP IG-88 usually comes with a smoothed over COO.  Rarely he has a scarred COO:


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:49 pm

Happy to see this thread rolling with your shared pictures, guys.  

Jay, Javi:

Interesting Leia Bespin cape variant with the big holes.
Jay, I understood you had Kenneth's cape in hand to compare it to yours. How is the look and feel of the cape. And does the pattern differ from any other type of cape, you have seen sofar?

Nicholas:
Great set of POCH figures you managed to pick up. The Leia Hoth is the variant with the smooth emblem, nice!
Does she also has the green eyebrows as seen on Wolff's site?

About the dark coloured head of the Yoda. There are two types of POCH Yodas.

Yodas from Spain: Apple green head (left), and olive green head (right).


The socalled leatherhead variant has a head which is prone to discolouration. This head is not unique to POCH, as it can be seen on Kenner figures too. Not a big surprise, when sticking to the theory that PBP imported painted and unpainted parts from the far East to weld them into early POCH figures.

Yoda's with COO#3. Left: Kenner (dark head transformant).    Middle: Kenner.    Right: Figure from Spain.  



http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427p315-the-poch-pbp-guide-discussion-thread#86543

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4685-yoda-olive-head-with-hong-kong-coo3
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:15 pm

flycasual wrote:
PBP IG-88 usually comes with a smoothed over COO.  Rarely he has a scarred COO:



Hi Greg,

Great post. That seems to be a new COO variant to me.

For comparisson here is another IG-88, taken from an older thread, where nobody didn't coin him PBP yet.  


Like you say, instead of having a smoothed out "Hong Kong", the COO is scarred out in your two PBP figures.
With parts of "Hong Kong" still remaning visible.
Both COOs (scarred and smooth) are from the same family, judged from the bigger ''©'' in ''© 1980 L.F.L."

Is it possible that these moulds were used in paralel during production?
Or maybe first the COO was scarred out, and at a later moment filled in again to give the 'smoothed' COO. Or vice versa?

Similar as the blobbed out COO for the PBP vader, which later became a scarred out COO (V-2a/b according to COO Guide 3.0).

What do you think, guys?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:41 pm

thanks marco cheers
about leia, yes she has green eyebrows, didn't notice the detail before.
here she is next to meccano leia to compare


about the yoda, is there a way to know if it is poch?

about the second vader, with a mark on helmet, is it poch? are there two different poch vader?

thanks
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:07 pm

Interesting IG-88 COO variants you have there Greg, both notably different showing the two different COO's from the two cavities in the mould. Very nice Smile

I don't recall seeing these in Wolff's COO 3.0 guide and most of the ESB COO's don't seem to work at the moment scratch

Have you submitted these to Wolff for the guide while both are present?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:25 pm

Great catch on the POCH Leia Hoth. Congrats!
A tough figure to acquire in that condition, at least in my experience. Sofar I haven't managed to get a nice example with intact green eye brows.  

Is it just me or is it the same type of green as seen on the POCH "toxic green" limbs Bossk?
Not sure whether this was the colour which was applied 30 years ago, or whether we are looking at degraded paint. But who cares, it looks cool.

Bossk: POCH (left), PBP produced (right).



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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:25 pm

About Vader. And your question how many variants exist.

Just in general, I wouldn't be surprised when most (all?) POCH figures have been assembled from parts originating from different mould families. In that case many different combinations of torsos, arms, heads, and legs (and thus COOs!!) are possible, even for the socalled "pure" POCH figures. Example here: a POCH black neck Lando proven to be made up from different mould families.  

Below are a few Vaders found in Spain. One of them has an ejector pin mark on the back of the head, like is the case in your figure. This is not a specific POCH trait as it can be found on Kenner Vaders as well (as expected).


Taken from: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427p285-the-poch-pbp-guide-discussion-thread#85447

Apart from the typical POCH factory defects (meltmarks, cracks, and well.....let's call them extrusions from now on Very Happy ), it would be interesting to see any unique paint scheme. Personally, a POCH figure should have unique paint applications (compared to Kenner). Unfortunately there is not much paint on Darth Vader, just the chest plate and the belt buckle. We should focus on these spots if we want to find specific POCH characteristics for this figure.

Maybe a good moment for loose Vader specialists to chime in (Oscar, Chris,...). Do we see any unique paint schemes on this page?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:52 pm

chiktabba wrote:

about the yoda, is there a way to know if it is poch?


From: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427p315-the-poch-pbp-guide-discussion-thread#86543

Compared to his Kenner COO brothers, the Yoda figure from Spain has:
- A darker grey head (compare right to middle figure), I am not sure whether this is a strong point, as the plastic of the head can degrade to darker tones (left figure), at least this is the case for Kenner figures.
- Light instead of dark green paint on hand and feet, this seems an unique feature.
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:28 pm

Dr Dengar wrote:
About Vader. And your question how many variants exist.

Just in general, I wouldn't be surprised when most (all?) POCH figures have been assembled from parts originating from different mould families. In that case many different combinations of torsos, arms, heads, and legs (and thus COOs!!) are possible, even for the socalled "pure" POCH figures. Example here: a POCH black neck Lando proven to be made up from different mould families.  

Below are a few Vaders found in Spain. One of them has an ejector pin mark on the back of the head, like is the case in your figure. This is not a specific POCH trait as it can be found on Kenner Vaders as well (as expected).


Taken from: http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t4427p285-the-poch-pbp-guide-discussion-thread#85447

Apart from the typical POCH factory defects (meltmarks, cracks, and well.....let's call them extrusions from now on Very Happy ), it would be interesting to see any unique paint scheme. Personally, a POCH figure should have unique paint applications (compared to Kenner). Unfortunately there is not much paint on Darth Vader, just the chest plate and the belt buckle. We should focus on these spots if we want to find specific POCH characteristics for this figure.

Maybe a good moment for loose Vader specialists to chime in (Oscar, Chris,...). Do we see any unique paint schemes on this page?





The first Vader in your pic Marco, looks to be similar to my Poch Vader, in that it appears to have a different shade of red paint on the chest buttons. the third one in from the left looks to be a PBP Vader coo scar VI.2a/b, judging by the tilting head and red over white paint apps, and the thinner coin slots on the chest panel. The far right Vader with no cape also appears to have the longer, thinner coin slots. But these sculpt differences are not indicative of its Poch origins, just an observation,
as it has already been mentioned that, as the theory goes, parts were bought in from the far east, and then assembled and painted by Poch, resulting in random coos and sculpt details being present on Poch figures.

here are some comparison pics of my Poch vader (always on the right), pictured with his Kenner coo counter part coo III.1b




Unfortunately my Poch Vader has lost a lot of his paint, but if you compare him to his Kenner counterpart, the paint is a bit more blood red and more intense in colour, compared to the regular kenner red, which is a fairly standard shade, throughout all the Kenner coo variants.

Its a bit like the difference in colour seen on the cuffs of the Poch Bespin security Guard, compared to its kenner counterpart.

The difference between the two Vader's is quite subtle in my pics, but is a little more obvious when you have the figures in hand.
I can't really see much difference in the white paint apps other than perhaps it is slightly more opaque on the Poch figure?

(interestingly, although the coos are the same, the torso's are slightly different.
This can be seen on the belt, the sculpt of the button detailing, either side of the buckle, is different on the Poch figure, compared to its Kenner counterpart.
Also the coin slots on the chest panel are thicker than on the kenner figure.
However these mix up of body parts can also be found among two Kenner figures with the same coo also.)


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:28 pm

Those vaders look great, :Drool:

I wish I could help, but the Poch vader is one I don't have yet,
it has eluded me and im still looking for one.
Not sure if these photos will help, but these are some pics I have saved,
to me the figures all look the same sculpt,
the third photo shows a semi translucent lightsaber,
to me the accessories, cape and saber, on a true poch vader should be unique, but that is my opinion
I also think that the Frankenstein vader figures, should not be considered poch
but that is my opinion.
Also I think that collectors should stop looking for melt marks and cracks on figures as an indication that they are poch figures,
I have Taiwan, Kenner, figures with melt marks, and cracks that are not Spanish figures.
But again that is my opinion.

Bill


Markus, sisefromm


these from Mattias??, I don't remember exactly


from javi showing cape
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:33 am

flycasual wrote:
PBP IG-88 usually comes with a smoothed over COO.  Rarely he has a scarred COO:




Hey Greg, these are really great findings! cheers

I have never seen scarred out IG-88 COOs before and it seems you have found both versions as your pics show clearly the different moulds of mould family III. Shocked

Just my 2 cents on the relationship of the smooth and the scarred out no COO versions of family III ... maybe the scarred out version came first and the smooth one followed ... because it seems to me from those pics as if there is more plastic (similar to a raised bar) on the smooth one which could be explained by milling out the COO from the mould. And that must have happened after the first attempt of removing the COO by filling the mould (which led to the scarred out version).
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:05 am

hello,
about the paintings, it is difficult to see something special here. maybe red is a little darker. (on the left is a kenner)


about accesories, I don't have the saber. but about the capes, one is really shoter


and the helmet are really rough for both of them and identical, with bubble, mark on the right for both, and a tiny mark on left at the exact same place (my other vader don't have this)

do you have this also on your vader from spain/poch?

here is a picture of the head of luke, wonder if this is pure poch or frankenstein?


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:09 am

Dr Dengar wrote:
Is it possible that these moulds were used in paralel during production?
Or maybe first the COO was scarred out, and at a later moment filled in again to give the 'smoothed' COO. Or vice versa?

Similar as the blobbed out COO for the PBP vader, which later became a scarred out COO (V-2a/b according to COO Guide 3.0).

What do you think, guys?

This sounds like a good explaination:
pattejan wrote:
Just my 2 cents on the relationship of the smooth and the scarred out no COO versions of family III ... maybe the scarred out version came first and the smooth one followed ... because it seems to me from those pics as if there is more plastic (similar to a raised bar) on the smooth one which could be explained by milling out the COO from the mould. And that must have happened after the first attempt of removing the COO by filling the mould (which led to the scarred out version).

General Kahn wrote:
Interesting IG-88 COO variants you have there Greg, both notably different showing the two different COO's from the two cavities in the mould. Very nice Smile

I don't recall seeing these in Wolff's COO 3.0 guide and most of the ESB COO's don't seem to work at the moment scratch

Have you submitted these to Wolff for the guide while both are present?
Thanks. Smile

They aren't in the COO 3.0 guide.  I haven't submitted them to be put into it.  They can be though.

pattejan wrote:
Hey Greg, these are really great findings! cheers
Thanks. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:05 pm

Hi Nicholas,

looking at your pic, although the paint is quite worn on the right Vader, it does look to be a similar shade of red as my Poch figure. I can't see much difference between the Kenner on the left and the figure in the middle.

My Poch Vader has a lot of bubbling and swirling to his head and has similar markings to yours.
But as already discussed, there are no sculptural differences or QC issues that are soley unique to Poch figures, it is only the unique paint application and colour that can be the most sure fire way to classify a loose figure as "Poch". Of course, Vader has very little paint, which makes him one of the hardest loose Poch figures to identify.

here is a pic of the head detail, of my Poch figure (click to see full size tab)



and below is a head detail pic of a Kenner figure with very similar bubbling and swirling, as well as other QC issues.







@ Greg - That's a fantastic couple of new Iggy coo variants you've found mate, I hope you do you get a chance to pass
            on some pics to Wolff, before you sell them  Smile
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:37 pm

I thought there was few sculptural poch difference, like for exemple the mark on snowtrooper on right shoulder?
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:27 pm

Yes its true that some Poch figures have certain sculptural characteristics that help to identify them. But it is also likely that there are Kenner figures out there too, with those same characteristics/mold flaws. It is the unique paint, combined with these known QC issues and mold flaws, that help us determine the figures origins, In my opinion Smile
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:51 pm

chris.75 wrote:
Yes its true that some Poch figures have certain sculptural characteristics that help to identify them. But it is also likely that there are Kenner figures out there too, with those same characteristics/mold flaws. It is the unique paint, combined with these known QC issues and mold flaws, that help us determine the figures origins, In my opinion Smile

Agree. Those characteristics (mark on Snowtrooper shoulder, bubbles on Fett, IG88, C-3PO, ....) probably just represent certain batches of plastic parts which were imported from the Far East. And can be found on Kenner figures too.

Thank you for chiming in, Chris and Oscar. Very Happy




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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:00 am

thanks chris for your answer and pictures. so how do you know your vader on picture is poch? with the painting? on the picture it is not easy to see a difference.
+ have you already seen a short cape?

about luke's face, anybody has a though? Very Happy


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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:26 am

here is another lot I just received. to me, the snowtrooper looks poch (has the mark on shoulder), tusken is not, and don't know about 21B and JAWA. 21B has a melt mark and discolred limbs. jawa has a malt marks on legs, mark in the middle of right arm, and black painting of face is trickeling, and has small eyes and has differences on accessories: blaster has a dot (can't really compare, only got one with peg), and hood has a light brown string compare to other I got. blaster of snowtrooper has a hole I don't have on other similar blaster.











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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:34 pm

chiktabba wrote:
thanks chris for your answer and pictures. so how do you know your vader on picture is poch? with the painting? on the picture it is not easy to see a difference.
+ have you already seen a short cape?

I can not say with 100% certainty that my Vader is Poch either, thats just it, Poch Vader's are one of the Hardest figures to identify, and probably the main reason why a seasoned and highly knowledgeable Vader focus collector, like Oscar, is yet to pick one up.

There is so little paint to go by to help us identify him as a Poch figure, and although not obvious in my pics, there is a definate red, colour difference, when seen in hand, between my Poch Vader and all my other Kenner Vader's (some 30+ figures) That, in combination with melt marks to his back, the extrusion from the lower torso and poor sonic welding makes me fairly confident that my Vader is a Poch figure.
Also I bought him from a very well respected collector of European figure variants, who knows a hell of a lot more about Poch figures than I do, having had many examples pass through his hands, in the pursuit of a full Poch set. Something he has recently achieved  Very Happy  

Indeed I am not saying that your Vader figures are not Poch, I very much hope that they are Nicholas, for to have a couple of Poch vader's would be an awesome accomplishment. I am merely trying to help you understand how to correctly identify them as such  Very Happy

unfortunately my figure is incomplete, with no accessories (the cape in the pic is Kenner). So I cannot compare your capes for you, Oscar's pic of a Poch cape, on the previous page, is a good one to make comparisons against.
It is also thought that the Poch Vader cape is a unique variant, and so could be different in texture, as well as a slightly different thickness and shape to your other kenner and PBP Vader capes. The saber too could be a unique variant, or it might also be found with the semi translucent darker orange PBP saber as seen in one of Oscar's Poch Moc pics.

With regards to the short cape, yes shorter cape variations do pop up from time to time, both with Kenner, PBP and even my Glasslite Vader has a shorter cape.
Your's is particularly short though, is it die cut along the bottom edge also, as perhaps it was cut down by a child at some point?

Sorry for such a long winded reply Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2   Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:08 pm

why sorry chris? very much appriciated help.
I don't have the saber of this vader. I do have the one of luke and ben, the don't look very particular. no letters. maybe the blue of ben is different. his cape is also different, is pointed on top.
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THE POCH/PBP GUIDE & DISCUSSION THREAD, PART 2

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