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 Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES

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rayesq
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:46 am

Trappedtexan thanks for your decorum. I have to question your definition of "top notch" with the persistently garbage attitude I've seen so far from chicken. I haven't seen the rebdlscum thread yet but I will shortly and hope for something actually substantiating Kenner or Lucasfilm licensing product manufacturing to China. Here's hoping.
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:56 am

wow - you really don't know when to quit :clap:

keep digging that hole ...



if you dig it deep enough maybe you'll finally get to the truth ...

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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:01 am

Trappedtexan, a site link of people saying "I bought a bunch of them so they can't be fake" does not substantiate licensing. The fact that your sources put them in an "ALTERED coo family" seems to indicate the opposite. If China got licensing outside Hong Kong, why would they need to alter Hong Kong molds?
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:02 am

No I don't quit just because a seller says "I promise it's true so please stop digging"
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:14 am

Ok I read your rebelscum thread too. So your argument is a bunch of people own them so they must be licensed??? What kind of garbage substantiation is that?

So you have a BUNCH of people that don't want to admit the figures they bought are fake (not licensed). Lol.

Just because they were made in the 70s - 80s or used altered moulds does not validate them. They would still be bootlegs/fakes.

Can someone please provide SOME EVIDENCE that Kenner, Palitoy, Mecco, Lucasfilm, or someone with licensing rights licensed production to China?

I'm not saying they aren't collectible. If people will pay, so be it. But I still see NOTHING saying there was a license. Please show me I'm wrong.

A bunch of comments by random people in a thread does NOT substantiate a position on the issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:16 am

I guess most people just shrink away when you treat them like idiots so you don't have to substantiate your bold and forceful assertions huh?

Looks like smoke in mirrors to me so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:17 am

@rayesq wrote:
Trappedtexan, a site link of people saying "I bought a bunch of them so they can't be fake" does not substantiate licensing. The fact that your sources put them in an "ALTERED coo family" seems to indicate the opposite. If China got licensing outside Hong Kong, why would they need to alter Hong Kong molds?

Really ? This from a guy basing his opinion and accusation on a single ebay article .

Good to hear that some guy on ebay is the new authority on vintage Star Wars , all the dedicated collectors here have spent all these years researching for nothing jawdrop

I know ... it's all a conspiracy . We have been making China coo's in our basement just to con unsuspecting newbies cheers

Thankfully we have great ebay articles and guys like you to set us straight and expose us for the liars we are celebrate
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:25 am

It blows me away what you guys are considering "research". If I went to court and argued to a jury "look a bunch of people on an internet thread say they have the figures so they must be licensed originals" I would ... they would ... aaaa ... this is just absurd.

You guys say "look it took 10 seconds of research to find such and such", but the such and such is garbage!!!

Can anyone point to ACTUAL substantiation of licensing to China?
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:26 am

@rayesq wrote:
I guess most people just shrink away when you treat them like idiots so you don't have to substantiate your bold and forceful assertions huh?

Looks like smoke in mirrors to me so far.

Your persistent , I'll give you that  Suspect

too bad your ...



:I am stupid::I am stupid::I am stupid::I am stupid::I am stupid::I am stupid::I am stupid::I am stupid::I am stupid:
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:33 am

Members have posted in this thread providing your lots of information and resources to proof that China COO figures are indeed vintage.
Basically answering your question, and the reason you started this thread.

Even a friendly meant advice was given:

Marco J wrote:

My advice: shake hands with James, and while happily collecting, keep on reading about the hobby, be active on forums. There are a lot of good people out there who can help you.  

I didn't expect a thank you, but hadn't expect this neither:

@rayesq wrote:
Well, if James/chickensht is a respected leader in the Star Wars collecting community and treats people like this, I think you guys need to find a better leadership.  I've interacted with him before and he had the same attitude then.  I think it is indeed chicken to bring someone to your online buddies' forum and throw stones.

Now back to the subject:

@rayesq wrote:
Can someone please point me to the substantiating source that Kenner did in fact license products for sale in China, such as an interview with a Kenner employee, statement by an employee of Lucasfilm or otherwise?

There must be a slight misunderstanding. Kenner produced vintage Star Wars figures in Hong Kong, Taiwain, China, Macau. These were subsequently exported to be sold in North America and Europe. Those figures were never meant to be sold in China.
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rayesq
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:37 am

I'm not basing it on just his article, I'm basing it on common sense and common knowledge.

For you to just keep saying I'm dumb just tells me you have NOTHING to prove your assertions that there was a license to China.. Have you ever done any ACTUAL RESEARCH into this or is it all just a bunch of the same garbage you have provided so far?
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:42 am

Marco, is this site just for people to say "It is cause we say it is" or is it meant to actually have people provide supportable information.

I asked specifically for substantiation and you just said "Kenner produced vintage figures in ... China ...". You all keep stating it as a simple fact. How do you know?????
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:43 am

It's very late here. Goodnight.
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:49 am

UKG Graded and Authenticated :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-1978-LUKE-X-WING-CHINA-RAISED-BAR-COO-UKG-AFA80-RARE-/131458393713?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e9b87e671

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-1980-REBEL-SOLDIER-CHINA-COO-UKG-AFA85-RARE-/131461043796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e9bb05654

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-1983-REBEL-COMMANDO-CHINA-COO-UKG-AFA85-RARE-/131442677321?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e9a981649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-Figure-Luke-Skywalker-Farm-Boy-UKG-Graded-80-China-/191547963053?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c9925f6ad

AFA Graded and Authenticated :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-WARS-VINTAGE-LUKE-SKYWALKER-X-WING-PILOT-AFA-U85-CHINA-/141568194084?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f61f3624

The U grade on this one means that it was removed from a unopened card to be graded No

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Loose-1980-Star-Wars-ESB-Lando-Calrissian-With-Teeth-AFA-85-China-1-5-/221741228506?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a0cea1da

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AFA-85-Vintage-Kenner-Star-Wars-ESB-Tie-Fighter-Pilot-Figure-China-Variant-1980-/221691246108?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item339dd3f61c


MOC :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-WARS-KENNER-ROJ-REBEL-COMMANDO-CHINA-1983-77-back-MOC-VINTAGE-CARDED-AFA-IT-/141627847977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f9ad7529

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-WARS-KENNER-ROJ-STORMTROOPER-CHINA-1983-77-back-MOC-VINTAGE-CARDED-AFA-IT-/141627841585?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f9ad5c31


need more ?


Last edited by ourchickenshack on Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:50 am

@rayesq wrote:
I'm not basing it on just his article, I'm basing it on common sense and common knowledge.

For you to just keep saying I'm dumb just tells me you have NOTHING to prove your assertions that there was a license to China..  Have you ever done any ACTUAL RESEARCH into this or is it all just a bunch of the same garbage you have provided so far?


Well, I think enough proof have been provided in the various links that vintage Star Wars items were produced in China. Figures in baggies, figures on cards,...

The provided information and research in this thread was generated by a community of many contributing vintage Star Wars collectors over many years.
To disqualify it simply as garbage is off course your own right, but I assume you have some facts to back up your position then. Please provide.
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:28 am

@rayesq wrote:
Trappedtexan, a site link of people saying "I bought a bunch of them so they can't be fake" does not substantiate licensing. The fact that your sources put them in an "ALTERED coo family" seems to indicate the opposite. If China got licensing outside Hong Kong, why would they need to alter Hong Kong molds?

They altered the coo in the mold to say china and not leave the hong kong name there because they were then making them in china and not hong kong.as kenner had had the molds sent over from hong kong to china,it would be wrong to leave the coo as hong kong if they were then being made in a completly different country (at the time) hence even just digging out the hong kong coo and leaving a blank raised bar.better to have no coo than a false coo.if kenner hadnt had the molds sent over to china for production to start there.how would they have got the original kenner molds.

Daren
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:30 am

@ rayesq you have a number of highly credible & respected members of the international vintage Star Wars collecting community trying to educate you about China COO figures. If you are unable to accept what you are being told, then there is no helping you. I don't wish to be disrespectful, but when you have been collecting as long as we have, it is very frustrating when a novice collector turns up and refuses to accept that we know what we are talking about.

A lot of the valid information out there has originated from members here and on other forums and is the result of a lot of painstaking research.

I've got China COO figures from my childhood collection. They are NOT FAKES / COUNTERFITS or BOOTLEGS. They are LEGITIMATE, LICENSED products.

As already mentioned Kenner used a number of Asian factories to produce the bulk of vintage figures. Licenses were also issued to Spain, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina etc.

The reason a Hong Kong COO would be altered to a China COO when the original steel moulds moved factory, is because at the time Hong Kong was under British rule and not part of the Peoples Republic of China. Like wise Taiwan & Macau had their own COO stamps.

I hope that you can see reason & accept what we are trying to tell you.

Just to reiterate, the article on ebay is complete rubbish as is the guide on weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:41 am

@rayesq wrote:
Can someone please point me to the substantiating source that Kenner did in fact license products for sale in China, such as an interview with a Kenner employee, statement by an employee of Lucasfilm or otherwise?

Unfortunatly there isnt an exkenneremployees.com where you can just ask the questions you want to.most of the information out there is gained from research done (tirelessly in most cases) by collectors over the years.

Daren
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:55 am

@ rayesq, as James has kindly pointed out with his ebay links you will notice the MOC sales with "FIGURE PRODUCED IN CHINA" printed on the back of the packing. This coupled with figures with CHINA coo markings on the reverse of the legs what more proof do you require?

You'll not find an ex-kenner employee to back the story up so the next best thing is US, seasoned collectors (without been too big headed). Believe me although we may talk shit some of the time we do no a thing or two about the hobby we love.

Within the collecting community the fact that CHINA produced figures is an accepted fact, now if someone claimed that ALIENS made them, I'd have to say that's BULLSHIT!

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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:30 am

@walkie wrote:
@ rayesq, as James has kindly pointed out with his ebay links you will notice the MOC sales with "FIGURE PRODUCED IN CHINA" printed on the back of the packing. This coupled with figures with CHINA coo markings on the reverse of the legs what more proof do you require?

You'll not find an ex-kenner employee to back the story up so the next best thing is US, seasoned collectors (without been too big headed). Believe me although we may talk shit some of the time we do no a thing or two about the hobby we love.

Within the collecting community the fact that CHINA produced figures is an accepted fact, now if someone claimed that ALIENS made them, I'd have to say that's BULLSHIT!

Some of them might have been illegal aliens lol!

Daren
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:23 am

You mention palitoy which is a European based company and mecco, which I assume you meant meccano, which is a French based company how do you know they had a license to produce vintage Star Wars toys?  After all none of them have France on the coo right?  You seem to be trying to find proof beyond a reasonable doubt when all that is available is proof by preponderance of the evidence.  You have been shown carded examples, graded examples, Baggie examples, and many people who have been around collecting a long time saying these are legitimate items.  

I imagine from the way you look for evidence that you must be a criminal defense or criminal prosecutor, but not have any form of civil law practice.  Did you read the entire article you put so much faith in?  The same guy in that guide used to also say that a proof positive way to tell if a figure was authentic was to use carbon dating.  You can read that they amended it and did so in a manner to make it appear that they were not wrong.  

Here is another guide saying they are legit.  http://thecantina.starwars7news.com/index.php?threads/guide-to-vintage-star-wars-collecting.848/  

If you can hold one little article, that has been shown to contain misinformation, as the Grail of collecting news then why not the other that contradicts the first.  I would bet if you sought out ex kenner employees that someone somewhere would be able to say that yes they used a factory in China due to cheap labor to produce figures.  No one has ever done this because there are authentic examples of figures as stated already.  How do we know that the figures stamped Hong Kong are acceptable?  After all wasn't kenner an Ohio based company?  You yourself brought up meccano, yet meccano did not produce any figures.......only cardbacks, after all there are no France coo markings on any figures.

In the end we know that figures were produced in other factories, shipped back to the U.S. (among other countries) and carded/bagged. Your argument is that the ones fom China are fake, my question is why just the China ones? What about the Hong Kong ones, the Macau ones, the Japan ones?

I think this is going to be my last response to you. I have been civil and upfront with you and attempted to show you the factual information. If you want further answers perhaps search for the factory codes on various cardbacks and read those threads, I seem to recall some regarding Kader and unitoys specifically which (if I recall correctly) where China based factories that kenner license to make the figures. These are specifically producers, not distributors. Palitoy, meccano, etc...are examples of distributors not producers hence why the same carded figures can be found on palitoy, tri logo, etc...card types. Some companies served as both distributor and producer. Lili Ledy comes to mind specifically. They produced figures that where put on lili Ledy cards and on made in Mexico cards.

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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:26 am

@rayesq wrote:
Can someone please point me to the substantiating source that Kenner did in fact license products for sale in China, such as an interview with a Kenner employee, statement by an employee of Lucasfilm or otherwise?

This statement might be the problem.  Kenner didn't have a "License to sell" any products in China.  Kenner only had factories in China "producing" figures for them.

Check out this link.  These are the figures you need to be on the look out for.

http://www.imperialgunnery.com/reproductionfigures.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:32 am

For a discussion community, you guys sure seem in an awful hurry to put an end to this thread.

-despite having requested an apology from fearless leader chicken for being a complete jerk and having not seen one yet; why the hell didn't you just provide pictures of AFA graded figures to begin with?; THAT is a well known group of experts

-no offense but why should newcomers to these discussion boards be expected to know or believe that this group (presumably of eBay sellers) and further be expected to just take you guys at your word

-you guys really should be willing to discuss things instead of just telling people to believe you because you're a self-proclaimed expert; or to provide some credentials as to your expertise

1) chicken/james never KINDLY pointed out anything

2) I have had to practically badger chicken into providing any real information whatsoever

3) if China did produce unlicensed figures with unlawfully obtained molds that were altered (which admittedly may not be the case), why would you think they would not print unlicensed cardbacks as well?

4) I don't understand why you guys, as a well-respected community of experts in the field of Star Wars toys, can't you get eBay to remove that article? Would you like me to try to help in my capacity as an attorney? If so, I would like to compile as much proof as possible.

Is anyone in here a certified AFA grader?
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:36 am

I will add that several of you have been pretty respectable. And I thank you for that. (Outside of ENABLING chicken's crap attitude of course).
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PostSubject: Re: Are China COO figures considered vintage original? YES   Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:44 am

Oh, and having seen SOOOOO MANY fake coins from China in the coin collecting industry is the reason for the deep rooted scepticism here.
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