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 Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)

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PostSubject: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:40 am

Just in case you aren't familiar , there is a famous thought experiment called the Ship of Theseus or George Washington's Axe. The situation is that someone (say a museum) owns the object. But over the years , as pieces have rotted or broken, they've been replaced. So someone asks "Wow is that the Ship of Theseus?" and the curator says "Yes, it is. But over the last few hundred years we've had to replace every board on it, because of age". The question becomes can you really call it the Ship of Theseus at that point?

So, nerd lesson aside, I bought an Italian 4 Pack. It's a known combination (Lando, Lobot, RC, and Biker Scout) but the Biker Scout was removed and replaced with a Tusken Raider. The overlap Panel opens easily for that last card to come in and out.

I've removed the Tusken, and I'll pick up a Trilogo Biker Scout to replace it. So the question then becomes what's the actual state of this? The overlap is just double side tape which does have some stickiness. The cards are just normal MOCs. If this were, say, a box with baggies would anyone argue the baggies weren't the original baggies from that box? Is it four MOCs and a resealed flap? Just curious what everyone thinks would be the right description.




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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:24 am

if that's the way it came originally then to me with the addition of the biker scout back in , id say its a complete vintage item . after all your not damaging it to make it right again .
the raider is one of my favorite figures so im more partial to him showing up anywhere even where he don't belong . What a Face its not like theres thousand of examples of these 4 packs around and if your happy with it that's all that matters
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:43 pm

The correct/right description is one disclosing all information that you know Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:50 pm

@aussiejames wrote:
The correct/right description is one disclosing all information that you know Smile

AJ - Of course. If I ever it it'll be the full story. I'm just curious about how its viewed. If this were a JC Penny 7 pack, would anyone care about where the baggies were from?

Just conversation starter

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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:29 pm

The best kind of collectibles are those with a great story behind them.
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:17 am

I think with a mailer it is slightly different as if it's sealed it's sealed, but if it's opened the buyer would assume the baggie(s) could have been 'pieced' together & would need to check that they are the 'accepted' baggie type(s) for that particular mailer.

Best thing to do would be sell the MOCs individually & give me the header card lol! lol! lol! geek
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:52 am

that's a good idea AJ, and just to take the worry off you're mind it'd be no trouble for me to look after the MoC Raider for you Razz

My opinion is that one day someone at a factory chose 4 cards and put them together with a header card, it couldve been different items if they'd waited to chat with their neighbour for a moment. So, if you KNOW which type of card (tri-logo etc..) & figure (Biker Scout) should be there, then you'd just be restoring it to what it could have been anyway, if "Elisabetta had stopped to chat with her friend Luigi for a moment". The figures are still MoC's and the header is in tact.
On the other hand it looks great as it is and no-one but a few people, probably all on this thread, would have a clue that the Raider shouldve been a Biker (me included).

I'm a loose collector and I have no idea if all my figures are with the original accessories they were packaged with, in fact I'll never know... but this doesn't detract from the fact that I have complete collections that look great.

To me it would matter if it was the wrong carded figure though, ie you cant add a Palitoy MoC in there. I just acquired a DT luke cheers and if the figure was not a known DT figure then it would just be wrong (and thanks for that lesson AJ bow ). similarly if you added the correct biker scout to the pack then it would be restored and back as it was originally intended!

I just think that's a fantastic find and a lovely item to display whatever you were to do with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:01 am

I notice the Rebel Commanders bubble is clearer than the middle two. Is it not possible that they all have been replaced as you would think the yellowing would be equal across the board if all stored in the same environment?

Not being able to prove or confirm whether they are the original cards would lower the valuation in my opinion and make the set far less attractive. The opposite could be said if you can prove they are original.

Basically all you should be paying for is the header if the mocs can be slipped in or out without any sign or damage. Original is original and swapping the mocs is making it look original. Two different things to many SW buyers.

We'd all have repro shit if we were happy with things looking original.
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:35 am

Well there are ways to tell the rest is okay.

The other 3 cards are secure against the double side tape. If they were removed, then it would be pretty apparent. The biker Scout, which anchors the end did create lift but it doesn't affect the other three.

As for the bubble yellowing, the lobot and lando are ROTJ (which do yellow) and the RC is a trilogo which normally don't!! Good eye!

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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:51 am

Of course, I should have noticed from the bubble size. I totally assumed they would all be the same style of cardback.

Nice item, despite the swapped card.
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:16 pm

And voila!!!

Found a nice trilogo Biker Scout and I'm back in business!! Just waiting on a custom case from AFA and it'll be display ready!



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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:05 pm

sweet
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:53 pm

Looks nice. I wonder if AFA received something like this to grade if they would be able to detect if some had been swapped out or not? I personally don't see an issue with replacing the figure with one that should have been there, but its for a responsible collector whom I know and trust. If this were to be done by a shady type or something I might feel differently. So kind of on the fence and the reason I haven't commented up to now.

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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:46 pm

@trappedtexan wrote:
Looks nice.  I wonder if AFA received something like this to grade if they would be able to detect if some had been swapped out or not?  I personally don't see an issue with replacing the figure with one that should have been there, but its for a responsible collector whom I know and trust.  If this were to be done by a shady type or something I might feel differently.  So kind of on the fence and the reason I haven't commented up to now.

I think it would very easy to spot actually. The Biker Scout has no glue and not enough will transfer from the outer cardboard to ever truly adhere to it. So I think anyone would see it. If I'm totally honest, I think most people won't even care. These aren't easy to come by so people will overlook this if they want it anyhow

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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:43 pm

@DarthBerizing wrote:
@trappedtexan wrote:
Looks nice.  I wonder if AFA received something like this to grade if they would be able to detect if some had been swapped out or not?  I personally don't see an issue with replacing the figure with one that should have been there, but its for a responsible collector whom I know and trust.  If this were to be done by a shady type or something I might feel differently.  So kind of on the fence and the reason I haven't commented up to now.

I think it would very easy to spot actually. The Biker Scout has no glue and not enough will transfer from the outer cardboard to ever truly adhere to it. So I think anyone would see it. If I'm totally honest, I think most people won't even care. These aren't easy to come by so people will overlook this if they want it anyhow

AND ,,,, it looks freaken sweet
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:11 pm

@hellhippie wrote:


AND ,,,,   it looks freaken sweet

Twisted Evil

That it does! It matches up perfectly.
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PostSubject: Re: Italian 4 Pack Ethical Question (Ship of Theseus / George's Axe Paradox)   Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:27 pm

An interesting question, I'm pleased that you put it back to its original 4 MOC for me it's a simple choice (I would of done the same the same)
I know it may be a less common item but who can argue with what you have done,
When it seems to me that so many people have put together early bird kits, mailers and even ships buy buying the correct bits.
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