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 Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question

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TheJabbaWookie
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PostSubject: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:58 am

I’ve recently purchase a loose Princess Leia Organa from a seller on eBay, who I’ve bought from before, who often sells rarer PBP and Lili Ledy products and who I have nothing but kind words for.

The figure is in immaculate condition but came packed with a v4 Lili Ledy Blaster and cape with smooth texture on both sides and no characteristic zipping sound. The cape is smaller than my current cross hatched zipping (assume) no Coo cape and has the corner cut off one corner rather like the Taiwan variant listed on the TIG site. The figure is a Hong Kong Coo.

I will examine the cape in more detail over the weekend and post up imagery of the cape alongside my existing No Coo cape (though my camera is not good enough to pick up the detailed textures), as well as pics of the Coo but in the meantime I wanted to rack the brains of the most experienced here.

Firstly I wondered if there is a full proof way to identify a Taiwan cape. There have been a lot of previous threads posted up over the years but nothing conclusive that I could find.

Secondly and more interestingly I wondered if there was anyway to confirm the following which the seller has said to me. He has said information can be found on the TIG forum but I haven’t been able to locate it as there are so many threads.

“Jay this is the first issue (very early cape) it just has a smooth side and a slightly textured side, the zipping sound/style capes merged and took over and became the norm. I have had Obi, Tusken and Darth capes all first issue and the same material, please don't panic as the figure is mine from card. I know TIG say that organa leias have dark blue blasters but kenner organas were also packed with light blue V4s (Ledy ones) but obviously were kenner and not Ledy, confusing but true”

Bryan, on a previous thread http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t8018-leia-cape-opinions?highlight=Leia+cape you posted a link http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1003038 and the 4th entry down appeared to validate this statement.

“I have a vintage Leia cape (I know it's vintage because it's the one from my childhood). Looking under a magnifying glass one side is ever so slightly textured. But only barely so. Not enough to produce a zip sound. There isn't a distinctive crosshatch pattern like on my vintage Kenobi and vintage Vader capes. Those patterns are clearly visible under the magnifying glass. And I can clearly hear the zippy sound on those.”

Any help massively appreciated.
Jay
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:56 am

I have a Hong Kong Leia that was being sold by the original owner in a lot of a supposed Early Bird set, minus Luke. Leia's cape has the same pattern you describe. As for the blaster, it's a dark blue/black V3. I'm fascinated to hear what others have to say about the blaster since I've never heard of any Kenner blaster in colors other than the varying shades of blue, black, and green. Definitely need to see a picture.
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:59 pm

I will dig more for the cape, but it sounds like authentic one to me. As for the blaster, I have never heard of an original organa issue with a blue blaster. It is always blue/black from what I know. Bruce would know more though so I will direct you to his thread. http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1048777

I think he is a member here also, but honestly cant recall.

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:08 pm

Pictures as promised. Examining the cape I would say it is slightly thinner than the cape I have with the cross hatch pattern, and has the same glossy texture both sides. Under the magnifying glass it has a faint texture to it and if I had to guess based on info available I would say Taiwan cape given the corner is also clipped off. However, I am the first to admit I know nothing about capes away from the standard Kenner cross hatch patterned zipping ones. And I wouldn’t know which is the early bird Coo, only know it’s a 2 line Coo - so any help gratefully received.







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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:52 pm

I'd say that blaster looks fine. I'll check my Leias when I get home. I have that COO
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:12 pm

Gonna throw some links at you, you can read a bit and then we can discuss what makes you think it is fake or real, and why.

First regarding the cape itself.
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5020-main-site-help-needed-leia-organa-vinyl-capes-taiwan-no-coo

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1038528

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1074902

Next regarding the "early bird" part.
http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1075643

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1030056

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=813480

These should answer the questions regarding this and allow you to draw a conclusion, but we can discuss why you have reached said conclusion and use this as an example of how one researches out a topic, finds answers for said topic, and uses those answers to apply them for what they have in hand.

And btw, I am not trying to come across as a jerk or anything. I just think every once in a while handfeeding answers isn't helping and we should show steps to help newer guys understand how we reach the answer. This is also a small subset of threads regarding this topic. There are many more but these have the various parts I think that will help you reach a conclusion.

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:41 pm

Great links, Bryan. I'm working on being a bit more independent, still confusing sometimes. Like that PBP Vader. I was 90%, but having a second opinion helped seal it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:48 am

Hi Bryan,

I have gone away and done some homework based on the links you have given me and also looked at more detail at the two Leias I currently own and in particular the capes.

The first thing I have concluded is that the only way to know with 100% certainty if a Leia cape is original is if it is on a MOC, has been removed from a MOC and graded (not advocating U Grading) or if you have owned it from childhood or have purchased it from a childhood collection and are able to verify the provenance, and in fact this is something that none other than Johnpaul Ragusa (AKA DarthBerizing) alluded to.

Of all the links you sent the most interesting is the one posted by TIGs very own ArtooDetour in November 2015 in which he asks for pics of members’ Leia capes for the forum:
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t5020-main-site-help-needed-leia-organa-vinyl-capes-taiwan-no-coo

In this Walkie “walks us through” in detail his Leia Organa collection which at that point contained 7 Leias including a Glasslite and a POCH variant. He includes detailed pics and measurements. The only two capes which made a zipping noise were his MADE IN TAIWAN and MADE IN HONG KONG capes, which is interesting in itself for two reasons - firstly that it is generally perceived that the Taiwan capes do not zip and also that there were plenty of HONG KONG capes in his collection that did not. What is unclear from the thread is whether Walkie is able to tell us with 100% certainty whether his capes are original either through having owned them since childhood or knowing the provenance of their origin.

In addition two other TIG members Lord Hendricus and Jackaroni give us pictures, descriptions and measurements of their capes. Lord Hendricus has two capes he believes are Taiwan capes to go with his TAIWAN Leia though I don’t think he confirms if they are TAIWAN or MADE IN TAIWAN - one of the capes is glossy one side and satin the other with horizontal striations; the other is glossy both sides with no striations. Both don’t zip. He believes one is a Taiwan and is unsure on the other. Jackaroni has a family ii 1a MADE IN HONG KONG Leia with a cape that is glossy one side, satin the other with no striations and doesn’t zip. He concludes by saying he is leaning towards it being a HONG KONG cape, even though it doesn’t zip.

What is clear from this thread is that there are different variants of cape out there, not just the two on TIG (which I realise you are aware of) and that we are unable to determine their originality with 100% certainty. We are unable to do this because of two reasons - firstly because of the number of reproductions out there and secondly because collectors today often pick up capes separately to their figures and mix and match and so it is hard to know what goes with what. For example Jackaroni has a MADE IN HONG KONG Coo and a non-zipping cape, whereas Walkie tells us his only zipping capes are MADE IN HONG and MADE IN TAIWAN. There are discrepancies.

The only way we could know in more detail is to invite collectors who are still in possession of their childhood Leia to an event and catalogue the results. Or we could convince all the collectors who have had their Leias u-graded to let us break them out of their Acrylic prisons and catalogue the results, unless the guys at AFA noted all the Coos and photographed the capes meticulously. Aside Walkie are their Leia focus collectors that may be able to provide more definitive information?

Getting back to my Leias. Here are the details:

Leia Family I (1a)
Cape: satin side with crosshatch pattern (makes zipping sound), glossy side with texture with slight vertical striations (no zipping sound)
Measurements: 89mm high; 57mm wide; 19mm from top of holes to top of cape

Leia Family III (1b)
Cape: two glossy sides more or less identical similar to glossy side of above cape with possible vertical striations but less pronounced (no zipping sound)
Measurements: 84mm high, 57mm wide, 17mm from top of holes to top of cape

Revisiting both capes now I would say there is no difference in the thickness of the capes. From my investigations I would say that the first cape is a No Coo cape. I have mix and matched my accessories and believe this cape is not the correct cape for my Family I (1a) Leia and should go with a No Coo Leia. (Unless there are HK capes out there with a cross hatch pattern - something I’ll refer to later). However, I believe it to be genuine but can not say with 100% certainty (as know one could) not knowing its provenance.

Interestingly looking at the set of capes in walkie’s collection it most closely resembles the cape on his MADE IN TAIWAN figure which is glossier, taller and has similar measurements to mine. I am not an expert as you know but I would go out on a limb and say that his MADE IN TAIWAN figure has been incorrectly paired with a No Coo cape which would explain why it zipped when TAIWAN capes are known to not zip in general. His TAIWAN cape looks too big to be a TAIWAN cape and his No Coo cape looks too small to be a No Coo cape based on TIG - perhaps they are mixed up?

The second cape is more interesting and harder to verify as it lacks the classic Kenner cross hatch pattern. I believe the 2nd cape to be genuine and not reproduction but again can not be certain of this. This is because it is of a similar thickness and texture to the No Coo cape above and not like known reproductions. It is smaller and most closely resembles walkie’s POCH cape in measurements or the Family I HONG KONG figure. It is glossy both sides and has the corner sliced off like those detailed on TIG for the Taiwan cape, however it does not feel different in thickness so am therefore not convinced it is a TAIWAN cape.

What I have begun to conclude is that at least some of the HK capes don’t zip as well which would explain why so many of Walkie’s don’t zip - whether these are as my seller said the Early Bird Leias and then they were replaced with the more common cross-hatch capes we are familiar with, or whether it is a bigger selection, I am unable to conclude. And that temporarily concludes the homework into my Leia capes. I realise I may be completely wrong and would welcome yours or anyone’s opinion, especially as there are many out there with much more experience than me with capes and Leia focuses.

I do have some questions for you - why is there only a no Coo and Taiwan cape on TIG and no Hong Kong variant? As the HK Coos are the most prevalent there must be plenty of examples and they must of come with a cross hatch patterned cape at some time in a similar way to DV and BK - would this be the same or different to the no Coo cape? Do you agree that there maybe some non-zipping HK capes, earlybird or not? Also do you have plans to update the TIG website to include more information on the regular capes (there is only one Vader cape listed but there are all sorts of different cross hatched thickness variants I have come across) and other variants like PBP, Glasslite, Clipper? Finally, I know that just because your cape makes a zipping noise doesn’t mean it is an original as it is possible that modern vinyl capes can make a zipping noise too, but if you have a cross hatch patterned cape that zips are they unique to Kenner and does that make it 100% original?

This has been an interesting exercise. Thank you.
Jay
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:00 pm

I am going to reread this response and answer later. Just wanted to commend you for doing a bit of research on the topic, and now you can see how in depth a simple question can actually go. This is similar with nearly every aspect of variant collecting. Always rabbit holes that take you in a bunch of different directions. lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:13 am

I’ve also started looking at the Earlybird question but need to look into it further before replying. Reliable information on this is also very scarce.
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:13 pm

I’ve looked into the earlybird Leia further but am struggling to find anything concrete. This is what I have determined so far based on a couple of posts
- 2 line HK Coo
- soft facial features with light paint apps
- earlybird transluscent green blaster

There are a number of posts indicating that earlybird Leia’s should have a 2 line HONG KONG Coo, though on Wolff’s Guide there are a number of different Coos this could be (Family I 1a and 1b, Family III 1a and 1b, Family IV 1a and 1b). This would seem to rule out Made in Hong Kong Coos and No Coos. However, there is at least one post which says they can also be MADE IN TAIWAN Coos. I have only see one post where it has been suggested that there is only one known 2 line HK Coo in order for it to be an earlybird and that is in the following post where Bonsai_Tree_Ent suggests it is a Family I 1a. However, while I know Bonsai_Tree_Ent is a knowledgeable and respected member of the community I have not come across this info elsewhere and this post is 5 years old. If it were true my Leia could be ruled out of being an early bird issue based on this evidence.

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1084629


There are also a few posts that suggest that earlybird Leias should have soft facial features, light paint apps on the eyes and eyebrows and a brown belt. Again Bonsai_Tree_Ent has a nice thread showcasing his earlybird Leia on http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1086230 - the differences are noticeable when placed side by side.

Though my Leia has a Family I 1b Coo she does have (what I think) are light brown paint apps and a brown belt. The pics earlier in the thread make them look dark and I’ve added another pic below to see what you think.





Finally all evidence points to a translucent green blaster and I can find nothing that mentions that the figure came packaged with a Lili Ledy blue blaster.

I would be interested in hearing people’s opinions on this especially Bonsai_Tree_Ent and also any Leia focus collectors of which I found one, Bruce White who has a lovely collection
http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=23157
http://vintagestarwarscollectors.com/collector-limelight-2-bruce-white-and-leia-organa/


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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:36 pm

My EB Leia has all the qualities, except the green blaster, and matches the pictured COO. Her's is the more common translucent blue, but the theory about green blasters would account for some having a green blaster. I do have a green blaster that came with my MADE IN HONG KONG Leia. When they say light apps, they're really light. They often fade at the edges, and almost look like they've half rubbed off. This figure did come with a smooth-on-both-sides cape. Since everything else fits, I'm going to say the buyer was telling the truth, and this cape is original.

My other HONG KONG Leia (higher on the leg and smaller) has black hair and belt, solid paint, and a textured cape.
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:00 pm

Do you have pics of them you could put up side by side? Showing full profile, upper body close up including belt, coo, and capes side by side if you're happy removing them.
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:14 pm

Be happy to. I'll work on it tonight when I get home
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:23 pm

@TheJabbaWookie wrote:
Hi Bryan,

I do have some questions for you - why is there only a no Coo and Taiwan cape on TIG and no Hong Kong variant? As the HK Coos are the most prevalent there must be plenty of examples and they must of come with a cross hatch patterned cape at some time in a similar way to DV and BK - would this be the same or different to the no Coo cape? Do you agree that there maybe some non-zipping HK capes, earlybird or not? Also do you have plans to update the TIG website to include more information on the regular capes (there is only one Vader cape listed but there are all sorts of different cross hatched thickness variants I have come across) and other variants like PBP, Glasslite, Clipper? Finally, I know that just because your cape makes a zipping noise doesn’t mean it is an original as it is possible that modern vinyl capes can make a zipping noise too, but if you have a cross hatch patterned cape that zips are they unique to Kenner and does that make it 100% original?

This has been an interesting exercise. Thank you.
Jay

Firstly the answer for the cape question. You noted Paul asking for help and some help was recieved. The cape sections are going to be worked on, but as far why we have what we have, a bit if history on TIG. TIG was formed by collectors for collectors. When Jay, the original founder, created the concept he and the group who were helping at the time asked the community for donations of pics and the response was overwhelming and positive. People sorted and produced the guide on the main site as you see it based on the donated pics. If there are shortcomings (and there are a few) it is because those items not shown had not had pics donated to add to the site. Paul has taken over the task of organizing and creating more content for the site, and his to do list is a mile long. Basically his asking for pics for the capes was his saying we need more for the site, but starting a thread on the forums and then eventually adding that data to a seperate site is a big undertaking. The main site guide is always a work in progress basically that expands and contracts when needed. Sometimes we still find errors in original submissions where someone pictured what they thought was authentic and it ended up being not. We make constant corrections as we come across them and Paul adds them to the main site.

As far as the capes I can conclude that some have a textured zipping side and some have both smooth sides. As far as what is authentic to which figure, we may never know unless it is pulled from a card and tested (and no, afa does not keep track of this type of info when they practice the destructive practice of ugrading).

I will have to reread the thread to answer further questions as I have been playing catch-up on here lately.

I also saw the early bird response and I want to say that Bruce would likely be a great bit of knowledge if you can get him to respond. I don't recall if he is a member here, another thing to look for is early bird collectors. I know there are a few who have the various types and focused on those sets so they would also be very knowledgeable. As far as what I have read and know of the early bird is she has lighter brown paint apps, supposedly a green translucent blaster which is like the Chewbacca bow caster. The blaster info I think originated because Chewbacca was also that way so it is assumed that all wale bird blasters are that way. They appear very dark in person and the green is only seen when a light source is placed behind it. I believe that one of the earlier mentioned early bird sealed set collectors also showed these weapons in a thread and I will try to hunt for it later.

As far as the coo. We don't have wolff's guide right now I think, but basically the way the coo works is there was a finite amount of molds that were used at initial production, each company who produced added their own coo to the mold; so kader, etc factories (seen in the factory cardback thread) each had a mold that they used and each placed a coo into. As the mold wore out or if say factory 1 was going to produce different figures and no longer needed their mold so it was moved to another factory; then the coo would evolve. This means original factory might say Hong Kong then factory 2 would fill the Hong Kong basically deleting it and it would be a no coo (scar or smooth depending on the fill job), factory 3 might make a new mold from hardcopy or whatever and they would add a new coo such as China, etc...this is how coo markings evolved. Leia was one of the handful of figures that saw production all the way through the line or deep into the line. She was first produced in with star wars and i think (not sure) she saw production all the way through to return and at least through empire. This means she had many new molds, many factories stamping her out, and many changes as the went.

As I get more time later this week I will revisit this and see if I can hunt up some additional threads. In the meantime Bruce would be an excellent guy to approach and see if he has any further information.

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:34 pm

Real quick, found a focus collector of early bird: http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1087799

Mr kenner is around still, I think he is on another board (besides rs) that I am on and posted there in the recent past.

Also just checked and some of Wolff's site is still open to public. I only looked here:
http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/introduction-coos/
Where you can see he talks about the evolution of coo markings.

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:58 pm

Thank you for taking the time to reply in detail Bryan. It’s really interesting trying to get to the bottom of these things and your input as always is detailed and greatly received. I think I will try as you say to reach out to a few guys on the forums starting with walkie, Bonsai_Tree_Ent, MrKenner and BruceW to see if I can get some further opinion on the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:47 am

Last I looked this Leia did not have an entry in the latest COO guide, so I'm just going to refer to them as HK1 and HK2. All the pictures will be in that order as well.

HK1



HK2

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:53 am

HK1 (left) and HK2 (right)











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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:03 am

As for blasters, I've heard variously that the EB Leia had a black blaster and a green blaster. For the green, I would point out that EB Chewbacca apparently did not come exclusively with green bowcasters as people commonly say, according to what I've read here at TIG, and green blasters in general can be found throughout the early run. They are attributed to poor pigment mixing. I would suspect the same with Leia, that green blasters might have come with EB sets, but not likely all of them, and could appear with different figures early in the line. I have a green Leia blaster, but it came with a Made in Hong Kong version. Here though could be the explanation for the "black" blaster as HK2 Leia came with a very dark blaster that does not have, at first glance, the same translucence of a lot of other blasters. But, with good light, it is actually shown to be a very dark blue, almost navy.







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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:06 am

Finally are the capes. Very similar, but HK2 has a bit of a peak at the top where HK1 is more rounded

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:29 am

Thank you for the pics. I believe you have a family I 1a and a family IV 1a. You can clearly see the difference between the paint apps on the eyes, hair and belt between your two figures and agree that based on the lighter paint apps theory your family I 1a would indeed seem to be an Earlybird. My family I 1b seems to be somewhere in the middle.

I realised the Leia I have with my No Coo cape is also a Family I 1a so I have included a comparison photo below (Family I 1a on left and family I 1b on right). From this you can see that the 1b has lighter paint apps on the eyes, but 1a has lighter paint apps on the belt. Neither are anywhere near as light as your Earlybird Leia.

I therefore assume that just because you have the correct Coo does not mean you have an Earlybird figure as this mold would have been used throughout the run from 1977 - 1985. Correct me if I’m wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:42 pm

[quote="TheJabbaWookie"I therefore assume that just because you have the correct Coo does not mean you have an Earlybird figure as this mold would have been used throughout the run from 1977 - 1985[/quote]

I'd say that's a certainty, unlike most of this, where nothing seems certain. This Princess Leia Organa figure is the one that has done the most in getting me to investigate production. There seems to be scant information spread all over the place, a good bit of it conflicting, and, for some reason, little documentation of variants compared to other figures. So, im going to start a focus on loose Leia figures, and see where it goes.
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TheJabbaWookie
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:16 am

This is an impressive Leia focus:
http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23157

I've contacted him to see if he can offer up any information.
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PostSubject: Re: Princess Leia Organa Early Issue Cape Question   Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:34 am

That's an amazing collection.

I have a Taiwan variant on the way, different paint apps, and different belt details. I'm wondering if this will help explain the difference in Taiwan capes people have found.
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