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 FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!

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Plantman
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 10:00 am

What are the honest chances of this though.

1. Having the EXACT material used for a Ledy Bib
2. Cutting the material precisely like a bib cape and size
3. Professionally stiching it together but stitching it together wrong
4. Stitching it together and then dying it? which makes the stitching wrong
5. or stitching an already red material with red stitch?
6. finding an original ledy bib and staff.

It just seems too much effort for sod all as they have been spotted as fakes, if you were going to go to these lengths to fake an item you would do it properly.

Maybe a possible scenario?? (dont laugh)

That Liliy Ledy started to use Kenner ways of working like with the MIM lines, they had kenner weapons and materials, so they started to stitch the Bibs up like Kenners using kenner machinery ect but still using their own fabric?

Is this a possibility...although unlikely
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 10:21 am

Andy...I made a quick comparison...the pics are not good, but the lining has the same scale on all pictures.

So you can see that dyeing a Kenner cape is impossible on this one!

FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 01102

To your other thoughts.

I dont think dyeing is involved in the process at all! Someone found the correct material (ledy also didnt dyed the fabric...they just bought it like it was and made capes out of it). So someone found the correct material on a roll or sth like that.

What do you need to make a cape out of a fabric???
- A mask from the parts the fabric is made of! (therfore you can take a cheap kenner cape. rip it of and make vignettes of the parts)
- a scissor to cut out the parts
- a thread for sewing together
- and a sewing machine

If you have enough material and skills its not so hard at all....I mean professionals sewers are out there. capes in the Ledy fabric were sewed by people, so they can be also sewn together today.....am I wrong?

Wolff
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 10:23 am

and yes...its sounds impossible to find the right material...but this capes stinks.....too many things that lead all to one thing: these are prettey good fakes...and we are doomed if the fakers take the right thread for sewing together.....
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RebelChris
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 10:34 am

I am by no means an expert at Ledy's. But from an outsiders perspective looking in on this troubling debate, I have to say that the lining looks obviously different between the two red capes, based off the photos you took Wolff.

The legit one appears (from the photos) to have the same sort of "pattern/feel" to what I've seen of the Ledy Han Trench Coat. The new "HQ" fake cape looks almost like either a dyed Kenner cape, OR a dyed Ledy Green cape. Just look at your comparison shot above my post. To me the stitch pattern of the lining on the fake one more closely resembles the Green Ledy cape with a little bit more wear.

The only resemblance to a Kenner cape (IMO) is the slits in the armpit. The lining just doesn't look "neat" enough. Especially when you look at your comparison shot.

Again, I'm by no means an expert in Ledy or variations as a whole for that matter. Just wanted to point out what it looks like from my perspective.
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Plantman
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 10:35 am

Those close up show a different material so lets presume they have a very similar material close to the original.

1. they get so close with their capes, but yet they screw it up by stitching it like a Kenner..
2. they use red stitching?? when they know the stitching isnt red.

Maybe they were slack, but jeez if they do get these right then the only way to tell would be by the lining?

Andy
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:09 am

hmmm, I must say this pics are honeatly missleading! The pattern on all three ledys is exact the same! I must have pull it out with my fingers while makeing a pic...

Chris:
A green cannot be dyed like this, because the outside is different here!! The tuft doesnt have the same look or lenght on the outside...so no: definatly no dyed green cape!

I try to make a better comparison of both....for now have a look here:
FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 IMG_5680

the little differences here are irregularties that are normal on fabrics...If they were strechted a bit etc....this is the same material...believe me!

Wolff
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xxGANDALFxx
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:22 am

@wbobafett wrote:
hey Dennis,

is this what you talking about???

I pulled both capes off (and it was a torture to the legit one, because its veeeeery brittle)!

But I found out:

Legit cape and green/grey ledy cape: no slits inside the armpits!
Kenner and "red stitch" one: slits inside the armpits!

red stitch:
FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 IMG_5692

playwear legit one with pale stitch (sry I caanot pull out the arm...Im afraid it will tear...but it has no slits by the look inside)
FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 IMG_5691


So its like I assumed: Someone found a good looking (if not perfect/the same) material and used a Kenner cape as modell to make an exact copy out of the found material???

Wolff

TBH the new 1 looks like a minter version of your play worn one. The weave would open 'fluff' up with time and i just think your top 1 is a less used version if u get my drift
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:29 am

Ok guys...News from Ben (SwScout):

I got pics from the one he got compared to a legit one! All facts are the same! This seems to be truly a HQ fake and there are many out there by now!

1. red stitch
2. Inner lining is shlightly paler
3. slits on the inside in the area from the armpits

These are the only ways to spot this one!! BE AWARE GUYS!!!!

Wolff
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RebelChris
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:42 am

I have a feeling that when we get to the Bib Fortuna on the Ledy guide, it's going to be a small novel!

Wink lol!
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:43 am

@RebelChris wrote:
I have a feeling that when we get to the Bib Fortuna on the Ledy guide, it's going to be a small novel!

Wink lol!

YOU THINK THIS IS FUNNY????
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:45 am

pssstt....Im just kidding....hope to get money and trade stuff back! I will keep ya updated!

I also got a very interesting pm from Ben_Hopkins....I asked him to post it!


Wolff
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RebelChris
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:45 am

No, I don't think this is funny at all mate!

I just think it's funny how much work I'm going to have to do for the Bib guide! I thought Fett was bad, looks like he's got nothing on ol' Bib.
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:52 am

@RebelChris wrote:
No, I don't think this is funny at all mate!

I just think it's funny how much work I'm going to have to do for the Bib guide! I thought Fett was bad, looks like he's got nothing on ol' Bib.

I told you a thousand times Chris....dont take me serious mate!!

I will help you guys a lot on this...maybe Swscout does too!!!

Wolff
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 11:56 am

HERE IT IS:

@Ben_Hopkins wrote:

Wolff--

You might want to try contacting Luis Galvez (LuisG on the boards) or Luis Villagomez (MexicanToys on the boards)about your Bib.

They are definitely pretty interesting. Both Luis's and I were talking about these pieces at a convention in Mexico City about a year ago (some dealers were selling them). When examining them in person, the color was also slightly off and so was the feel. You'd have to really examine them against authentic examples to see this. While wear and degradation may explain this, it's probably not the case from what I've seen in person.

The pattern on the inside of the cape is a different story and we cannot fully explain it yet--it's very, very similar to the (known) originals. The question remains though, why would someone use a near perfect inside patten to fake a cape but use the wrong stitching? It isn't clear. But dying a near-original material could also explain why the stitching is red, so who knows. Do ask Luis G. for his opinion.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Ben
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Plantman
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 12:00 pm

Again, it all goes back to that bloody stitching, why would they really screw it up with those two key factors, the kenner seams and red stitch...... unsure
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 12:04 pm

Andy....I dont know....but they popped up in Mexico and overflooded the market. they all look the same and never appeared before.

That only leads to two conclusions:

1. FAKED
2. Overstock found (in which I dont believe)

Wolff
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 3:04 pm

Wow this thread has grown since my last reply.

first i want to say, the information here in the thread was information known by some off us, and i think not spread around the net with one purpose, prevent fakers to learn from their mistakes and not to give them a chance to make the perfect copy. The info about the armpits i gave was some critical info wich could be used to spot a fake burgundy cape instantly.

the people who make these customs capes can be reading the forums to, and we don't need to give the more info on the telltales they need to get rid off, and this thread sums them all.


Now about the Bib capes. here is my theory:

I do believe these are not dyed capes, but someone from mexico (track those bib most lead to mexico) found just the same fabric as the fabric used by LL.

They went trough alot off trouble trying to make the Bib cape and as reference they used an common kenner bib cape as there are lots off them and the get the sizes off each part you would have to take an cape apart. This is an explanation why they made the kenner armpits on the cape.

What i do not understand is the question that also Luis and Ben stumbled on, is why would someone try to create the perfect replica and then use the wrong colour off stiching? I can get the wrong armpits, i think my theory about that is acceptable, but why red stiching? It's very odd.

Also from what i can read in Ben mail, these allready popped up in mexico last year, why took it so long before they came on to the market?

Anyway, it's good to give other collectors the knowledge about how to spot these repro's and prevent them from getting ripped off, but like i said, this knowledge for the collectors is also the knowledge for scam artists to improve there fakes.

Cheers, Dennis.
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 3:40 pm

shall I delete Dennis???
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 4:59 pm

Man i would like to shove a light saber right up the arse of these scammer's,making these repro capes and all the other bullshit there making. How dare they fk up Ledy's with repro's, have they no soul?

It's realy sad what the scammer's will do for the all mighty dollar.

Even on ebay i've seen some greedy tactic's.Stuff coming not from Europe asking for GBP money.Everyone know's the GREAT Britian Pound is the most valued currency in the world, why would a dude in south america be asking for pound's?

So i have heard through conversation in chat,PM"s and in thread's alot of people have these fake Red Bib's.the scammer's are going to keep selling them,and a lot of people are still going to get burned,this is just the tip of the iceberg this kind of repro madness is just at it's beginning's i fear it will get worse.WTF can we do their ruining the f'n hobby?Makes me sad. Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 6:16 pm

Really sorry to hear that this turned out to be a fake. I hope the seller comes through on a refund for you. The only good thing about this is that it gets the info out there, so collectors know what to look for.
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 6:56 pm

"Ledy: capes have no cuts inside at articulation of arms like Kenner cape " this is not new/hidden info. It's in the German LL guide.
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 5:43 am

@Stargeezer wrote:
Wow this thread has grown since my last reply.

first i want to say, the information here in the thread was information known by some off us, and i think not spread around the net with one purpose, prevent fakers to learn from their mistakes and not to give them a chance to make the perfect copy. The info about the armpits i gave was some critical info wich could be used to spot a fake burgundy cape instantly.

the people who make these customs capes can be reading the forums to, and we don't need to give the more info on the telltales they need to get rid off, and this thread sums them all.

Cheers, Dennis.

I understand this totally Dennis and have mulled over it myself when putting info out on the new wave of repros. Lots of guests visit the forum so it would be pretty easy for the person behind these items to learn how to make them better from threads like this.

I was thinking about creating a new section called vintage chat members only so we could put potentially sensitive threads like this one in there. Its worth noting we have over 100 different guests visit every week some are regular some are not.

Do people think this would be a good idea or not?

Cheers Jay

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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 5:52 am

@jaymassive619 wrote:

I was thinking about creating a new section called vintage chat members only so we could put potentially sensitive threads like this one in there. Its worth noting we have over 100 different guests visit every week some are regular some are not.

Do people think this would be a good idea or not?

Cheers Jay
yes it's a good idea but perhaps pointless. It's easy to join up, pretend to be decent and really just be a dodgy, scamming repro making twat Mad
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Plantman
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 5:54 am

Cant you just hide the warning section from non-members?

yeah i know they can create an account but its a small step to make it more hassle.
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PostSubject: Re: FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!!   FAKE OR REAL????....LEDY BURGUNDY CAPE!!! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 6:22 am

I agree with Andy, it's enough to keep some away.
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