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 Real or fake ?

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OZIO
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 3:09 pm

Hi, i've seen some of this figures through the years, and the LL factory story sounds pretty solid to me, i just whant to point in my humble opinion that: be careful when you buy this items as they are very easy to fake, i'm not saying in anyway that the ones for sale right now on FHU!bay are fake. I'm just saying that if you play a little bit with your microwave oven you cand go crazy on this, this is my example it took me 15 mins to change limbs from one fig to another (popcorn included):


Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05617 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05618 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05622 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05620 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05613 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05614 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05615 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05616

regards
ozio
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merlin
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 3:13 pm

@Joe_O wrote:
Kenner operated in America, Ledy had the license to distribute and manufacture Kenners toys in Mexico, so there was no need for Lili Ledy to try and test the market, they were just producing what Kenner had already decided on (and by 1982/83 I am pretty sure they knew what kids wanted since the late 70's)

I have to think it was kids being given overstock or rejects to take home rather than the workers spending time making odd figure combinations and giving them out as souvenirs, I think a better memory from a toy factory would be an actual figure not some Frankenstein Shocked BUT I can also see them ending a tour by saying " and you can take home a part of a toy from the factory" etc , to make it a bit fun for them (and cost effective to give out rejects rather than normal figures)

Joe ....Please , I don´t want to be unrespectful , but I want to explain to you how the world was back in the early 80´s here in Mexico.. I just went to check out your profile to see your age, and I just noticed you were born in 1984 , that is why probably you haven´t fully understand me when I tell you that you have to set your mind in the early 80´s ... also to remind you that even if you didn´t see it it doesn´t mean it didn´t exist... Example: like the L.L. 8D8 with insert, you said it didn´t exist , in the last 3 months I have seen 3 L.L. MOC 8D8 with insert.... or like me when I said that the L.L. At-ST with squared bubble was fake because I haven´t seen it!..... Big mistake I made!! .. but know i prefer to ask before doing false statements so I can learn from the ones who know!..


My friend, back in the early 80´s Mexico didn´t allow any kind of imports and I mean NOTHING ( TV´s, radio,FOOD,furniture, toys, you name it) I know it´s very hard to understand it .... but even if you don´t, believe me , the world was like that!! and that´s a fact!! .. we had a paternalist goverment...everything had to be produced in mexico , 98% of the population didn´t knew that kenner existed.... only a few had the opportunity to fly to US or other parts of the world and bring Kenner toys ( of course that´s if customs didn´t take them away!!) .... you can verify that info with any mexican that was born before the late 70´s.... back then, believe it or not there were other toys more popular than STAR WARS..... like the magic oven , it can be a great example!! ...all girls wanted that ..and it was very popular back than!!...

Also, as you probably know , and talking as an example, something can be very popular in your country, but in here it can be considered as prohibited or rubbish, or the other way, ..yes I remember STAR WARS was popular , but also was Flipper , Skippy , ULTRAMAN ( WOW , that was really, really popular back then!!!) , and many, many others ... I don´t think that the Ledy guy was telling lies to me during CV !! ... it makes perfect sense, they want to know if Star wars action figures were popular as the other toys of it´s era....as simple as that!!!!...... also remember that Lili ledy manufactured many ,many,many other kind of toys...THEY WANT TO KNOW IF IT WAS BUISNESS OR NOT TO PRODUCE THEM!.....very simple explanation....

About the last part you wrote " ....take home....cost effective to give out rejects rather than normal figures...." as i explained to you, mexico only consumed mexican products, so the quality was terrible for any product, trust me ,back then it didn´t existed quality control programs or anything like that ..because it was very simple.....you were only allowed to consume those products, there weren´t any others!!! ... so back then ...how give a fuck about Quality???... there were no other choices!!!

Iknow it´s kind of hard to understand something that it wasn´t on your time or something that you haven´t seen, but trust me , it was like that!! ....My friend , It´s like if I begin to talk things about your country , things that happened 30 or 40 years ago, first of all I wasn´t born yet, second, I don´t live there, 3rd, I will never fully understand it because of the Cultural differences!! .... you can ask any mexican of my age or older about that...

I hope the explanation was clear this time!!! ..... and I´m still waiting for those pics to arrive from my friends!!! -..
!
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merlin
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 3:19 pm

@OZIO wrote:
Hi, i've seen some of this figures through the years, and the LL factory story sounds pretty solid to me, i just whant to point in my humble opinion that: be careful when you buy this items as they are very easy to fake, i'm not saying in anyway that the ones for sale right now on FHU!bay are fake. I'm just saying that if you play a little bit with your microwave oven you cand go crazy on this, this is my example it took me 15 mins to change limbs from one fig to another (popcorn included):


Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05617 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05618 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05622 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05620 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05613 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05614 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05615 Real or fake ? - Page 2 Dsc05616

regards
ozio

OZIO ..... I´m sure you know Arturo Soler!! .....he has those kind of figures (ORIGINALS!!).... last time I saw him,he had the Boba fett Prototype L rocket firing!!..... I wonder what happend to him??
and you are right ,NOW, high chances to see a lot of fakes out there... no doubt about that!!....

Also I´m sure you verify my story...... Hard to believe that Mexico was like that 30 years ago!! amazing eh?
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OZIO
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 3:29 pm

Hi Adolfo, yes Mexico was VERY diferent back then, pretty much as you describe it m8.
Regards and good memories!!
ozio
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RebelChris
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 3:51 pm

@merlin wrote:
@Joe_O wrote:
Kenner operated in America, Ledy had the license to distribute and manufacture Kenners toys in Mexico, so there was no need for Lili Ledy to try and test the market, they were just producing what Kenner had already decided on (and by 1982/83 I am pretty sure they knew what kids wanted since the late 70's)

I have to think it was kids being given overstock or rejects to take home rather than the workers spending time making odd figure combinations and giving them out as souvenirs, I think a better memory from a toy factory would be an actual figure not some Frankenstein Shocked BUT I can also see them ending a tour by saying " and you can take home a part of a toy from the factory" etc , to make it a bit fun for them (and cost effective to give out rejects rather than normal figures)

Joe ....Please , I don´t want to be unrespectful , but I want to explain to you how the world was back in the early 80´s here in Mexico.. I just went to check out your profile to see your age, and I just noticed you were born in 1984 , that is why probably you haven´t fully understand me when I tell you that you have to set your mind in the early 80´s ... also to remind you that even if you didn´t see it it doesn´t mean it didn´t exist... Example: like the L.L. 8D8 with insert, you said it didn´t exist , in the last 3 months I have seen 3 L.L. MOC 8D8 with insert.... or like me when I said that the L.L. At-ST with squared bubble was fake because I haven´t seen it!..... Big mistake I made!! .. but know i prefer to ask before doing false statements so I can learn from the ones who know!..


My friend, back in the early 80´s Mexico didn´t allow any kind of imports and I mean NOTHING ( TV´s, radio,FOOD,furniture, toys, you name it) I know it´s very hard to understand it .... but even if you don´t, believe me , the world was like that!! and that´s a fact!! .. we had a paternalist goverment...everything had to be produced in mexico , 98% of the population didn´t knew that kenner existed.... only a few had the opportunity to fly to US or other parts of the world and bring Kenner toys ( of course that´s if customs didn´t take them away!!) .... you can verify that info with any mexican that was born before the late 70´s.... back then, believe it or not there were other toys more popular than STAR WARS..... like the magic oven , it can be a great example!! ...all girls wanted that ..and it was very popular back than!!...

Also, as you probably know , and talking as an example, something can be very popular in your country, but in here it can be considered as prohibited or rubbish, or the other way, ..yes I remember STAR WARS was popular , but also was Flipper , Skippy , ULTRAMAN ( WOW , that was really, really popular back then!!!) , and many, many others ... I don´t think that the Ledy guy was telling lies to me during CV !! ... it makes perfect sense, they want to know if Star wars action figures were popular as the other toys of it´s era....as simple as that!!!!...... also remember that Lili ledy manufactured many ,many,many other kind of toys...THEY WANT TO KNOW IF IT WAS BUISNESS OR NOT TO PRODUCE THEM!.....very simple explanation....

About the last part you wrote " ....take home....cost effective to give out rejects rather than normal figures...." as i explained to you, mexico only consumed mexican products, so the quality was terrible for any product, trust me ,back then it didn´t existed quality control programs or anything like that ..because it was very simple.....you were only allowed to consume those products, there weren´t any others!!! ... so back then ...how give a fuck about Quality???... there were no other choices!!!

Iknow it´s kind of hard to understand something that it wasn´t on your time or something that you haven´t seen, but trust me , it was like that!! ....My friend , It´s like if I begin to talk things about your country , things that happened 30 or 40 years ago, first of all I wasn´t born yet, second, I don´t live there, 3rd, I will never fully understand it because of the Cultural differences!! .... you can ask any mexican of my age or older about that...

I hope the explanation was clear this time!!! ..... and I´m still waiting for those pics to arrive from my friends!!! -..
!

I don't think anyone is doubting your memories Merlin.

I think what people are having a hard time with is, the fact that the Ledy factory would have cobbled together figures, laying around for people to pick up at the end of the factory tour.

What Joe says makes sense in terms of a factory setting. I can totally understand giving out figures at the end of the tour. But I doubt they gave away either A) cobbled together figures that aren't from the actual toy line or B) real production figures that met and passed all quality control tests and were ready to be included on the cards. From a business sense/standpoint, that just doesn't make sense. Why produce a figure ready for the market, only to give it away at the end of a tour? Or why pay someone to assemble a bunch of figures from parts and pieces and end up with a toy that doesn't exist in the line?

To me, it would make more sense to have some parts and pieces laying around that didn't meet QC standards for people to pick up at the factory. Things like mold rejects or short shot figures. It would then either be the factory tour attendees could assemble their own figures, or just have a bunch of left over parts. Which if they grabbed a bunch of overstock parts/pieces, then I could see how these figures existed AFTER people left the factory tour.

The problem is, that we just don't know enough about the Ledy factory and toy line. Even people who have collected for years, don't know the full story.

Either way, the figure that the original poster linked to, is neither a prototype nor a "test shot". That much we can be sure of.

I'm not saying that your story isn't correct. I'm just saying that a lot of memories that we had as children/young adults are skewed. The same can be said for kids actually owning the Rocket Fett. It just plain didn't happen, yet people remember it.

Also, who did you meet at C5 from the factory? Was there a panel or something that I missed? Just curious, as that would have been an interesting one to attend. Very Happy
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Joe_O
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 4:09 pm

These are all overstock photos from what was probably the biggest Ledy overstock find back in the day.

Real or fake ? - Page 2 Pedro_10

Real or fake ? - Page 2 Pedro_11

Real or fake ? - Page 2 Cajasl11

There were probably hundreds of thousands of pieces of action figures that were chucked away/discarded or found after production stopped and even during production there would definitely be parts all over the place in a busy factory.

Is it not entirely possible that as young kids you guys got to the end of the tour and the tour guide said "Help yourself to a part of Star Wars Action Figure" and you guys just grabbed a few bits of overstock?

A few kids take lots of bits and construct their own creation at home and the memory is now that in fact these odd figures were given out on the tour?


I really don't doubt the factory trip story! Please don't think I do.

The part that doesn't make sense is the strange assembling of these figures, Ozio just said its very easy to have a mess around and 15 minutes later you have a new figure made from 3 characters, but why would someone do that in a factory for kids?

Also, I understand I am not an old Mexican guy, I am an English guy who is younger than the films and the toys are, but I know from my own memories of toys/films/cartoons/ even day trips that kids confuse things very easily, and the older you get the more distorted the memory is.

Star Wars toys were produced all over the world, yet it seems only the Ledy Factory in Mexico did these strange wonderful things? I sometimes wonder why there are so many stories and myths attached to the Ledy factory, I can only presume its because Ledy figures are so damn popular and no-one seems to be able to sit down and write up a consistent story of what happened down there, production, distribution, etc etc..

The market testing was done with Empire figures - "Only after the success of the action figure line in the United States and the movies themselves was that Lili Ledy decided to import some figures from Spain. Those are the rarest Lili Ledy figures since the distribution was scarce, even some people related with Lili Ledy refer to them as a market test"

Money was tight and production costs and quality were at a minimum , you can see this in the QC of the figures and the bad quality of the cards (no full colour backs etc) so why would they waste an employees time by making him sit around constructing strange figures for kids tours? Its really far more likely they just gave the kids access to overstock and damaged figures.
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merlin
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 4:46 pm

Chris and JOE.... no doubt that the action figure we are talking about is probably a fake!! .. lol!

in a very respectful way , I just think it´s very hard to you (and many others ) to understand what was happening during that era ...REALLY , the world was very different from now .... No clue how can I explain that to you.... I guess you can ask your parents!! ....it´s the only idea I have in mind...

JOE wrote".....
Star Wars toys were produced all over the world, yet it seems only the Ledy Factory in Mexico did these strange wonderful things? I sometimes wonder why there are so many stories and myths attached to the Ledy factory, I can only presume its because Ledy figures are so damn popular and no-one seems to be able to sit down and write up a consistent story of what happened down there, production, distribution, etc etc..
"

As I told you before and any mexican can tell you that QUALITY CONTROLS WERE ALMOST INEXISTENT during those years!! ... Seriously , Is that hard to understand??????? ...... well , I guess so!!! , it was a time when all the factories did whatever they wanted...Imagine this ...... no competition of any kind ??? it was their product and period .. ..can you imagine that for a second??.. I really hope so , because even for me it´s hard to believe it now!!....in a very respectful way and don´t take me wrong... but I think it´s very hard to you to understand that ..... very easy , 15 years ago there were no celluar phones or logging to the internet was quite a challange!! .... you were both in the middle teens, do you remember your life without a cell phone or computers !! ....... only time will make you understand this point...nothing else....

About my memories .... yes I have to accpet that it´s hard to reconstruct things from the past , but I already talked to several of my friends that went there with me!!! ..... it´s kind of colective memories!! ... Honestly , I don´t care if you believe me or not, but is very incredible that all of my friends have been telling me things about that tour that I didn´t remember!! ..

It´s very easy Chris and JOE..... ASK somebody that you know that actually went to the Ledy factory or worked there ...... very simple.....


Chris wrote:
Also, who did you meet at C5 from the factory? Was there a panel or something that I missed? Just curious, as that would have been an interesting one to attend


My friends....I wrote already that I didn´t attend any panel because I was talking to all this people that worked for Ledy and kenner!! ... it was what i was looking for!!! ...

here is a PIC of Me, Oscar and Jack (I think that was his name, ex-kenner employee) that had several of the POTF prototypes , yes they existed even if you don´t know them or have seen them!!!...... Very Happy and you can see them on the back!!.. it was funny , he told us that he sold those many,many years ago, and now he only laughs!! .... I guess you didn´t attend the important talks just the commercial ones!!! .. Very Happy

Real or fake ? - Page 2 Sam_1411
´
I think I Oscar has the other PIC´s becasause i´m looking for the ones with the creator of a character from strawberry shortcake ( don´t remember wich one !) ...she is a very old, old lady!!! ....

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merlin
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 4:58 pm



talking about the Ebay figure ..... IMO .... high chances that´s fake!! ..
but who knows????


lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
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Joe_O
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20, 2010 5:23 pm

Well it seems we agree the figure is fake, that is one thing Wink

All I can say is (from my little 26 yr old point of view Razz ) that I want to see the pictures , or have some trusted source that worked at the Factory to be able to confirm
that people in the Ledy Factory in 1983 were sitting around piecing figures together as free presents for children visiting the Factory.

To sum up -

Ledy Factory is shrouded in mystery - Yes
Ledy Factory had a tonne of overstock - Yes
Many sellers fake figures and call them Ledy Prototypes - Yes
Childhood memories can be misleading - Yes
We all agree the figure in question is fake - YES YES YES
We have no logical reason for these mixed up figures to be made other than they may have been made by the workers for poor kids to play with - YES

If the last thing is true why did anyone bother with making bootlegs? Bootlegs were available cheaper for poorer kids surely?
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shawn_k
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 21, 2010 5:52 pm

Some great discussion going on in this thread and it would be great if we could find out for sure if this actually happened.

As it stands right now I would have to side with Joe and Chris on their thoughts. It just doesn't make sense, but it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. The 80's were certainly a different time with no internet, mobile phones, etc but toy production was not a new thing. I learned a long time ago that the age of a collector should not matter. I've met collectors with a lot more knowledge than me that are younger and some that are older just starting out. Your knowledge in collecting, toy production, etc does not equate to your age.

Having said that, did I live in Mexico in the 80s? No

So obviously my knowledge is limited as to what it was like during that time, but as with any memory, it helps to have some proof to back it up. I hope you can get the pictures that your looking for and prove everyone wrong. As it is pretty interesting to think that people could tour the Ledy factory and get these cobbled together figures.
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 21, 2010 6:43 pm

I dont know what to say to fill this up...Joes posts are very very identical with what I think! Testing the market (no matter how old you are or in which period this happens) with putting various pieces together (some of them unpainted) is quite nonsense and 100% not true!

The only thing I could imagine with my 30 years old brain is:

They took some parts from assembly line because thea were damaged (short shots, missopianting, etc.......sth, that didnt even made it through quality control in Ledy fac.).......so they maybe had tons of this stuff....pulled it zogether as gifts...what would be clever, because the gusets still have no "real" complete figure....so they have to buy a fully and correctly pulled together and painted figure!


The only things that wonders me is: not every head mateches on every pin!! Im also a customizer...and its not easy mix around parts quite right: not every head matches on every pin and not evry head need a pin!!!!!!!

I still think its simply ineffective to make such giveaways: ugly, unpainted, the time you nee to pull these together...etc.

and as Joe said: kids mind can fool ya....I know a lot of collectors who believed in their selfpainted figures as legit variations. They thought they KNEW that they came off the card that way....

Nobody is saying Merlin is lying...he has no reason to do that....Im just a collector, who has learned to think rational over the last 25 years of collecting! Thats all!

And there is also a lot of unanswered questions about tzhe overstock founds: why was the darkbrown headed luke bespin never released??? etc. etc...



Wolff

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merlin
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 21, 2010 9:47 pm


WOW, WOW ...I thought this was al set!! ... this is getting old.....here is what JOE wrote and I agree 100%... and it resume everything...

To sum up -

Ledy Factory is shrouded in mystery - Yes
Ledy Factory had a tonne of overstock - Yes
Many sellers fake figures and call them Ledy Prototypes - Yes
Childhood memories can be misleading - Yes
We all agree the figure in question is fake - YES YES YES
We have no logical reason for these mixed up figures to be made other than they may have been made by the workers for poor kids to play with - YES

Let´s put some facts in here:
First of all , I don´t need pictures to proof anybody wrong ( I don´t care to do that ) ... I´m looking for the pics to share the memories , not to proof of anyting!!
Honestly, It´s very hard to discuss something ( and specially related to the early 80´s) when you haven´t lived in in a 3rd world country ....my friends....trust me , it´s very different from your countries!!!
That been said, Latin people think way more different!!! ...... DAMN, everybody knows that ....do you also need pictures so I can proof that lol! lol!
Even if I sense some sarcasm in the age issue , my friends, wait until you get a little older, and you will do things that when you were 26 Laughing you thought they were impossible!!! ...


Nobody is disscussing if I´m lying or not ....that is not the issue!! ( I don´t really care because it happened!) ..... even Chris ( and I don´t care he is the MOD or whatever he is!) thought I was lying about saying I talked to ex kenner and ex Ledy employees during CV!! Do you really think that nobody is allow to talk to them or that they don´t exist because he didn´t do it ??? .... really , is not my problem that you have been collecting SW items for the last millon years and you haven´t been able to talk to people that actually do the items that we collect!!!
By the way THERE IS THE PIC ( funny that nobody said anything about that!!) ..... you can verify it with Oscar or the AFA guys that they were there!! .... My lord , people , you are acting as the inquisition , really , I´m reaching that point that is obious that I´m talking to walls in here, Don´t think that if you can not do it, it doesn´t mean nobody can do it!!! .... LOL .... in 5 months I bought 20 Perfectly well conserved Ledys, nobody thought it was ´possible and I did it!!! ..... LOL, I know you always need proof....well go to my limelight..... They are in there .. Very Happy

As I said before.... yes you are both right about memories , after a while they can get pretty weird and wrong, that is correct, but again , do you want all my contacts that went to the Ledy factory to TESTIFY in here!!! lol! ....COME ON PEOPLE, get real!!! ,

I bet there are thousands of persons that went to the Ledy factory ( like myself) , and saw the action figures at the end of the tour ....just find them and ask them..... or are you going to say again that is not real, because you were not there , or because they don´t have pics????? ....

In this forum everybody says they know Ledy experts like Luis galvez or Oscar Diddier .... let´s make this very easy ...If you know them , ask them !!! ...but please , after you ask them , don´t ask them for pics! lol! ...

You should be glad to met somebody that actually take a tour to the ledy factory ...... not to question what was the name of the Manager on duty when I visited the factory LMAO!! ( and of course, why not... I´m sure you will ask for pics with the manager!! lol! lol! ), I´m not saying to take my words as the complete truth, but again , you can not talk about something you weren´t there niether you were born!!! ....is a very simple fact!!! ...

After all this discussion, I don´t care anymore to share my experineces with a group of people that think "It didn´t happen", "It´s not possible", "It doesn´t make sense" , etc.etc. ..... because there are things in life that happen with out any reason and that don´t make any sense!! ......
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 21, 2010 9:59 pm

Yikes, please continue to share your experiences with us. I like seeing pictures not for proof or anything other than to see nice pictures Smile Your collection of Ledy's is fantastic & for me is a great reference for what is real. Now who's been making fun of old people? Laughing I'm not old, just grey & wise lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 12:10 am

I echo what James says. Great thread, that i'm sure everyone here is interested in.
Don't think for a second that there is nobody here that wants to hear your stories & recollections of collecting as a child in Mexico in the 70's & 80's. I really think that although things are still quite different between Mexico & other countries like USA & UK, the gulf was far wider 30 years ago.
I for one would like to hear more from collectors like yourself. Maybe with the shared information that the internet now allows us we can piece together a more accurate picture of collecting Star Wars figures in different countires throughout the world.
Keep it coming m8!
Cheers.

(From a guy that has a few years on most!)
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 3:04 am

Merlin, I apologize for any offense taken in my comments as that was not intended. We are all here to discuss a hobby we love and it is great that you are here to share your experiences with us. I certainly hope, as I'm sure the rest, that you would stay and continue to provide your input. I'm not saying that your lying or that your story is false. You don't have to prove anything to anyone here. It is your memory and that is good enough for you. You know what is true to yourself. I have certainly been corrected myself in the past for things that I thought I knew and were wrong. Everyone on here is free to read this thread and make their own conclusions as to how things were.

The only thing that I have to say I do not agree with, was how you tried to discredit Joe simply on his age. Just because he was born a little later than the majority of other vintage collectors does not make him any less knowledgeable.

I hope there are no hard feelings on this and if you want to discuss further with me please do so via pm.
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 4:13 am


I have followed this thread and its been a great discussion and i have found it very interesting Smile

Over the years through research and sharing experiences many new finds and bits of information have been pieced together and its happened from collectors working together, sharing childhood memories and importantly where possible any evidence that can confirm details that allows us to clarify and confirm things.

I personally come from a research angle everything i try to do with the imperial gunnery sites is to provide as much acurate info about the things i write up. Im no expert either and i have made mistakes and incorrect assumptions lol A recent example was i stated on the TIG Weapons Site that Original Leia Blasters were not produced in Grey. I made this as a blanket statement it was only from talking with Collectors like OZIO and Uli and colllecting evidence and photos have i confirmed that in fact Original Leia Blasters were produce in Grey on the Lili Ledy line. :opps: My next step was to imediately source pictures which i managed to do and i have now updated the page so now collectors going to the site will see the new info.

Now if some had said to me yes the Ledy Leia Blasters were produced in Grey of course i would doucment that information in my notes but if no-one could provide and pictures then i wouldnt have confirmed and added the details to the website because when i add any info i make sure is 100% correct and confirmed as i wouldnt want to put out incorrect information Smile

Im sharing this Alfonso purely to try and explain a little bit of the reasons people will seek photos / evidence its the same situation when any new information comes to light in the hobby and is a natural course of action to take the same thing happens on RS if a user states new information the first thing people will do is ask for is evidence / pictures, additional witnesses etc etc. The motives are not to prove a poster wrong but to clarifly and confirm the new information is indeed acturate and if so once confirmed 200% it becomes a new important part to the history of the hobby. Nobody asks the questions to insult or upset the original poster far from it!

To have someone on the site whos from Mexico is awesome and you have a direct childhood link to the Ledy line which acutally i would like to here more about Smile
I know how Palitoy products related to my childhood and i think we all have tales to tell but i would love to hear about your Vintage SW Lili Ledy childhood experiences Alfonso!

I have been thinking about a thread idea for a while but i have never got the time yet to set it up as my own personal story would take a while!!

Who would like to see a thread called - Your Vintage Star Wars Childhood Memoirs!


Cheers Jay

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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 4:21 am

Great story to bad i'm 3 sheets to the wind.
I'll take some of those brown head luke overstock please.
lol
good stuff.
i think tequila is answer to question.
pltthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
3amseeyoualltomorrow drinking2 drinking2 drinking2
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 7:52 am

Merlin, I sincerely hope you aren't serious about leaving the site or sharing your collection with us based on this discussion, as I told you in PM you can't discuss anything if everyone is in agreement, thats just one sided and if everyone agrees or has no other angle on whats being said then you are merely saying the same things as the next guy.

I love seeing your collection and as the others have said it would be silly to stop over this!

As for the age thing, I gotta admit its a bit condescending to throw that into the ring even if in your eyes its the reason
for us not believing or understanding your posts, believe me I understand every word Very Happy

I can't help the way I am, I like the facts, I can't base my opinions on things that may or may not be true, like Jay there has to be a reason and some way to find out the truth behind something before you believe it 100%, that's all Smile

Another important thing behind knowing the facts is this: Scams

Let's say you told your story and everyone here said , oh wow thats great I didn't know that but now I might try to find something like this for my collection.

They go on ebay and easily find a figure like that one and they buy it hoping its one of these frankensteins from the tour, its not fair on them to believe and buy into things without proof. It's like many other things in this hobby, believing its a prototype based on an ebay sellers description but no history to prove it, believing its a variation because someone said he also has a Chewbacca with green limbs.

In my opinion things have to have a reason thats all, if I can't make sense of the reason given then I look into it more!

Anyways, back to C5 and that picture, naming him as Jack doesn't help lol , is it Tom N? If so I believe he worked in marketing at Kenner in the USA, he is the man responsible for the majority of the proofs,cromalins,prototype pieces that have been saved, there is a thread here on TIG about him. If not, what is his name?

If its Tom, did he really tell you 100% that Ledy gave out these figures to people on tours of the factory?

You said earlier that people like me and Chris have not spoken to the people that made the toys to understand anything, yet Tom has been talked to at length and posted many different stories about his time at Kenner, I in fact own a piece that he once owned and I was speaking to him this year about it in fact. I based my learnings off of the very things people like him have said Smile Just because we haven't met him in person does not mean collectors haven't spoken to him.
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merlin
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 9:38 am

Now, your questions doesn´t make any sense to me :

JUST TO START AND FINISH THIS DISCUSSION ...Now I will make everybody 2 VERY simple questions ......

Is it very hard to believe that there were guided tours to the Ledy factory??..... I don´t have a clue what everybody did in their childhood , but didn´t your schools take you to guided tours to a lot of places ( Factories, historical places, landmarks, zoos, museums????) ..... sorry , in the early 80´s there were no video camaras in Mexico or sophisticated camaras , only instant POLAROIDS and normal camaras :I am stupid:

Is it very hard to believe they give away plastic figures at the end of the tour ( please think clearly, because at the end of the story , our beloved collections are pieces of plastic that were very cheap to produce in great amounts!! they were not giving away pieces of gold like they are right now!!! THEY ARE AND WERE PLASTIC, NOTHING ELSE!!!! DAMN, even today, walmart gives plastic bags away for free lol! lol! lol! e!!!! )


just to clarify things I didn´t wrote or that somebody didn´t understand.......

@shawn_k wrote:

The only thing that I have to say I do not agree with, was how you tried to discredit Joe simply on his age. Just because he was born a little later than the majority of other vintage collectors does not make him any less knowledgeable.


PLEASE read very carefully,

Shawn , ....I didn´t discredit JOE´s age , I just wrote that I went to his profile just to look for his age , because is very important to set your mind back to the early 80´s ....and as I stated before, he wasn´t born yet , and is very hard to talk about things you weren´t there and even harder if he wasn´t born yet , IF THERE IS A LINE WHERE I MAKE FUN OF HIS AGE , LET ME KNOW IT! ( I just stated he is young!!!) ....actually JOE with his 26 years, was the smartest by adding the following to the thread and I agree with him...

Ledy Factory is shrouded in mystery - Yes
Ledy Factory had a tonne of overstock - Yes
Many sellers fake figures and call them Ledy Prototypes - Yes
Childhood memories can be misleading - Yes
We all agree the figure in question is fake - YES YES YES
We have no logical reason for these mixed up figures to be made other than they may have been made by the workers for poor kids to play with - YES


[quote="Joe_O]

Another important thing behind knowing the facts is this: Scams

Anyways, back to C5 and that picture, naming him as Jack doesn't help lol , is it Tom N? If so I believe he worked in marketing at Kenner in the USA, he is the man responsible for the majority of the proofs,cromalins,prototype pieces that have been saved, there is a thread here on TIG about him. If not, what is his name?

If its Tom, did he really tell you 100% that Ledy gave out these figures to people on tours of the factory?

You said earlier that people like me and Chris have not spoken to the people that made the toys to understand anything, yet Tom has been talked to at length and posted many different stories about his time at Kenner, I in fact own a piece that he once owned and I was speaking to him this year about it in fact. I based my learnings off of the very things people like him have said Smile Just because we haven't met him in person does not mean collectors haven't spoken to him.

[/quote]

JOE ....I agree with you been concerned about the SACMS , No doubt about that....

My friend....my old brain is not working anymore , lol! ( juts kidding) I can´t remeber his name correctly as I stated before , is it Tom N ??? , he told me he was the owner of all POTF cromalins that are in the back of the pic... sorry I didn´t ask him to show me pics with the items ( HAHAHAHA ......a little sarcasm in there!) , I took his word for granted, Oscar knew him very well!!! , I enjoyed hearing all his stories, sorry, that I won´t share them...because I´m sure you are going to ask me for the recorded tapes ( just kidding again!)., if you talk to him again , ask him about this discussion....

Joe ... he just talk about SW items and a little about the Kenner factory...... LET ME KNOW WHERE I STATED THAT HE TOLD ME SOMETHING ABOUT THE LEDY FACTORY????

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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 9:54 am

With the talk of contacting Ledy + Kenner employees at C5 and then the picture it looked like you meant this was the
guy you were discussing this subject with, you stopped talking about any Ledy employees that you met at C5 once you posted that picture.

@merlin wrote:

I went to the Ledy factory when I was a kid , and at the end of the tour , you received an action figure or something else , ( my brother got a L.L. star wars action figure like that one when he went!!) .... they were assambled with many parts of several action figures and they were in large buckets so people grab them at the end of the tour!! , I also recall that Ledy give away action figures like that one to the poor people back in the early 80´s ...

@merlin wrote:

Also, like I told you before , and after the explanation that kenner and ledys ex-employees give me ( During CV) ,NOW everything makes perfect sense to me, they were evaluating what kids were looking for ! , their needs and most important which toy deserved their attention…. They want to see which figures were the most pouplar, and tons of other things……you have to think as a businessman …… not if it makes sense or not!! ….


@RebelChris wrote:

Also, who did you meet at C5 from the factory? Was there a panel or something that I missed? Just curious, as that would have been an interesting one to attend. Very Happy

@merlin wrote:

My friends....I wrote already that I didn´t attend any panel because I was talking to all this people that worked for Ledy and kenner!! ... it was what i was looking for!!! ...

here is a PIC of Me, Oscar and Jack (I think that was his name, ex-kenner employee) that had several of the POTF prototypes , yes they existed even if you don´t know them or have seen them!!!...... Very Happy and you can see them on the back!!.. it was funny , he told us that he sold those many,many years ago, and now he only laughs!! .... I guess you didn´t attend the important talks just the commercial ones!!! .. Very Happy

Sorry for assuming it was Tom confirming the story, and I guess if I now ask who the Ledy workers were you will be upset at me asking more questions Razz (Although it would make things a LOT clearer for everyone if you said yes or no if you were discussing this particular issue with these guys you met, the frankenstein figures I mean not the tour.)

Sorry for any crossed wires Merlin, no-one is trying to make you upset over this, we are all skeptics thats all Smile But still we enjoy your contributions! Consider us the Sherlock holmes collectors lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 10:02 am


Joe... you want to ask me more questions????..... lol! .but I didn´t see you answering my very simple,simple,simple questions.....

here they are AGAIN........


JUST TO START AND FINISH THIS DISCUSSION ...Now I will make everybody 2 VERY simple questions ......

Is it very hard to believe that there were guided tours to the Ledy factory??..... I don´t have a clue what everybody did in their childhood , but didn´t your schools take you to guided tours to a lot of places ( Factories, historical places, landmarks, zoos, museums????) ..... sorry , in the early 80´s there were no video camaras in Mexico or sophisticated camaras , only instant POLAROIDS and normal camaras

Is it very hard to believe they give away plastic figures at the end of the tour ( please think clearly, because at the end of the story , our beloved collections are pieces of plastic that were very cheap to produce in great amounts!! they were not giving away pieces of gold like they are right now!!! THEY ARE AND WERE PLASTIC, NOTHING ELSE!!!! DAMN, even today, walmart gives plastic bags away for free e!!!! )

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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 10:14 am

@merlin wrote:

Is it very hard to believe that there were guided tours to the Ledy factory??..... I don´t have a clue what everybody did in their childhood , but didn´t your schools take you to guided tours to a lot of places ( Factories, historical places, landmarks, zoos, museums????) ..... sorry , in the early 80´s there were no video camaras in Mexico or sophisticated camaras , only instant POLAROIDS and normal camaras

Yes I went to many different places! I visited all the museums in London, I visited some historical places and got to dress up in vintage clothing and stuff like that, we did all kinds of things, I also visited a power plant and the Ford factory in Essex Very Happy


@merlin wrote:

Is it very hard to believe they give away plastic figures at the end of the tour ( please think clearly, because at the end of the story , our beloved collections are pieces of plastic that were very cheap to produce in great amounts!! they were not giving away pieces of gold like they are right now!!! THEY ARE AND WERE PLASTIC, NOTHING ELSE!!!! DAMN, even today, walmart gives plastic bags away for free e!!!! )

No not at all, I got a few things on my visits, mostly stuff you could buy, but I remember in a few places they gave you freebies.

I don't doubt these things Merlin, I really don't but as Wolff said earlier, what is the benefit of giving a kid this :
Real or fake ? - Page 2 Frank10

What would they learn? If a child picked this up and took it home instead of a figure with chewbaccas arms and a klaatu body what would Ledy (And Kenner) be learning about what kids wanted in Mexico?

If they wanted to see what kids preferred they would look at sales AFTER they were produced, and if they did it earlier they would be giving out complete figures so they knew which figures were popular and what to produce not frankensteins, come on now Sad Lets be serious, no company would be doing this kind of stuff.

Kenner OWNED these figures, regardless of Ledy's role in the distribution or production, ultimately they were Kenners and Kenner was passing a lot of responsibility onto Ledy in letting them have the licence, these toys were never owned by Lili Ledy, not the design, not the names , nothing more than their toy company name on the product and the rights to produce them.

If it was for research (which I also believe WAS done - by PBP sending them Empire figures to test the market and see if it was worth spending time and money selling them in Mexico) then why invent figures that would never have come out.

Let's say our friend Frank -
Real or fake ? - Page 2 Frank10
Was picked out of the factory by 9 out of ever 10 Mexican children that visited, would Ledy have told Kenner to make one? Or in fact make their own decision to put these out without discussing things with Kenner? There is no point to it, kids would probably pick up a turd if it was multi colored but thats not something they would put on the card!

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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 11:49 am

@Joe_O wrote:
@merlin wrote:

Is it very hard to believe that there were guided tours to the Ledy factory??..... I don´t have a clue what everybody did in their childhood , but didn´t your schools take you to guided tours to a lot of places ( Factories, historical places, landmarks, zoos, museums????) ..... sorry , in the early 80´s there were no video camaras in Mexico or sophisticated camaras , only instant POLAROIDS and normal camaras

Yes I went to many different places! I visited all the museums in London, I visited some historical places and got to dress up in vintage clothing and stuff like that, we did all kinds of things, I also visited a power plant and the Ford factory in Essex Very Happy


@merlin wrote:

Is it very hard to believe they give away plastic figures at the end of the tour ( please think clearly, because at the end of the story , our beloved collections are pieces of plastic that were very cheap to produce in great amounts!! they were not giving away pieces of gold like they are right now!!! THEY ARE AND WERE PLASTIC, NOTHING ELSE!!!! DAMN, even today, walmart gives plastic bags away for free e!!!! )

No not at all, I got a few things on my visits, mostly stuff you could buy, but I remember in a few places they gave you freebies.

I don't doubt these things Merlin, I really don't but as Wolff said earlier, what is the benefit of giving a kid this :
Real or fake ? - Page 2 Frank10


Kenner OWNED these figures, regardless of Ledy's role in the distribution or production, ultimately they were Kenners and Kenner was passing a lot of responsibility onto Ledy in letting them have the licence, these toys were never owned by Lili Ledy, not the design, not the names , nothing more than their toy company name on the product and the rights to produce them.



OK, now we are on to something ........

Now I´m Glad that we agreed that is possible for you to take a guided tour to the ledy Factory...
Also glad that you got freebies in those tours Very Happy Very Happy

About the action figure we are talking about ( Frank) ..... I have wrote that most probably is fake....DAMN I have write it like 4 or 5 times.... is not like the ones I have seen....but again, how many things we learn each day???????

I have answered like a dozen questions ...now is time for me to do the questions...
I have write the following like 3 times also ....
Do you know Arturo Soler???? ...... another mexican collector..... like 4 years ago I went to his house and saw all those figures we were talking about... Sorry No pics or video of those figures .... but there are some mexican forums where you can see his action figures !!

Do you have any latin friends????.... because here is the answer to most of your questions
Yes you are right ,Kenner passed the license to Ledy..... but read carefully ...because now you give me the reason again ..... how many L.L. figures had a lot of variations compare to Kenner???? , even if Ledy was supposed to do the exact thing that kenner........ Burgundy capes, Jawa different cape, weapons had different colors, etc.etc.etc.... my friend, that is the Latin way of thinking , and with all do respect , you will probalby never understand , even worst, you can´t set your mind in the early 80´s in Mexico , ( of course I will also accept that I will never understand your way of thinking !! ) .....


returning to ebay fiugre ...... ( and rememeber I still think is fake!) ...the ones I have seen where grey ( unpainted!) not white... but again...who knows?
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 12:19 pm

I'm not surprised Adolfo doesn't feel like sharing any more info regarding LL after reading this thread!

Here's a guy who has actually been to the LL factory & was sharing his experience with everyone regarding the figure in the original post & some people have trouble believing him because he has no photo's to prove what he saw.I'm sure the last thing on his mind as a child going to visit a toy factory was to take a camera & take pics of everything he has seen he case anyone wanted to dispute it many years later! Rolling Eyes

If Adolfo says he has seen these figures for himself then i believe him as he has actually been to LL factory,can anyone else say the same?

I hope he manages to get hold of some photo's to back up what he has seen! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Real or fake ?   Real or fake ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 22, 2010 12:42 pm

@DarthStanley wrote:


Here's a guy who has actually been to the LL factory & was sharing his experience with everyone regarding the figure in the original post & some people have trouble believing him because he has no photo's to prove what he saw.I'm sure the last thing on his mind as a child going to visit a toy factory was to take a camera & take pics of everything he has seen he case anyone wanted to dispute it many years later! Rolling Eyes

If Adolfo says he has seen these figures for himself then i believe him as he has actually been to LL factory,can anyone else say the same?

I just said:

I know tons of people who think their selfpainted figures came that way off the card! Ridicioulus selfpainted crab...and pepole still swear to god: "I never painted this one as a kid"....and "it came off the card like that!"

Kids memorys are not the best.....

And Joe and I only said:

1. Its a very unusual way for give aways. Their are ugly..partially unpainted. This is not a real advertisment for the regular figures....or?
2. It is a hell of work to find matching pieces!....so its a bit pedestrian
3. There is no way of trying to test the market with these figures! They got the licence from kenner....so no frankensteins can be produced...EVER! This is simply not possible and also never happend!
4. It can be true that they get rid of their parts they didnt need anymore....no matter for what reason! Also: the vistors then have no "real figure" and still need to buy a real one!....so maybe that was even clever!

And also Merlin: for a third world country...common...you had the license to produce neraly all characters! Ask Argentina or Brazil what did they produce (licensed)?????

To the fact that the have loads of variants: In this time (and Im so old that I can maybe say this): It werent variants at these times...just poor quality control! For the red Bib: they produced it maybe because of the Kenner cardbacks or because they had the Proto! For the Jawa: Its just simpler to sew it like that...and simpler means cheaper! Thats all! And no matter how old are you and it what country: They always try to make their best profit...thats all....and you can see this on lots of Ledy variants: hold it simple, cheap and fast!!!!!

Wolff
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