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 Walrus Man

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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15, 2011 4:01 pm

@mike-skywalker wrote:
Which Bossk? No, the no coo Biker Scout can also be found on non french Trilogo cards.
Actually I was thinking of the no coo (Meccano) Rebel Soldier and no coo Ackbar, but I still have no proof, that´s why I was only mentioning the DSD.

Thanks for that, I was on about the Bossk with the Copyright/date 2 lines on right leg and MIHK COO 2 lines on the left leg. I seen that some where and have been looking out for it but there hard to find.
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15, 2011 4:33 pm

Interesting thread!

About the no COO Bikerscout (the one with the skinny legs): He was released on Trilogo cards with the "Fabrique a Macao" (Made in Macau) sticker for the French market (Meccano). I don't know whether he was released on other (Tri) cards as well. Might be interesting to know.

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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15, 2011 4:39 pm

Walrusman threads seem to bring out the most discussion on variation classification than any other :scratch: Smile


Towards the end of the last millennium! Wink (mainly) British Star Wars collectors started to notice their late Palitoy and Trilogo cards contained oddly coloured figures, the light blue Boba Fett, the pale At-At Commander etc. and started to refer to them as Tri-Logo figures when discussing them at collector fairs, selling them through classified ads, or when talking to fellow enthusiasts.

Once internet collecting (eBay, Star Wars forums etc.) started to take hold more and more of these variants were noticed (and variation collecting became popular). In an effort to classify/group these figures the term Tri variant was coined to include all the weird and wonderful coloured figures that appeared on Trilogo and late Palitoy cards. The term Trilogo variant was deemed to be ‘incorrect’ as some of these variations were more likely to turn up on RotJ Palitoy cards than Trilogo cards in the UK. At about the same time some collectors spotted variations appearing on earlier Palitoy cards and gave them the Pal variant name.

More and more collectors started getting interested in these variant figures and reports of the same variation appearing on different cards came in. An effort was made to add to the Tri classification to identify other manufacturers and licences who made / packaged these variants on their cards. Thus Tri variant became Tri/PBP, Tri/Mec etc. Some variations appeared on many different cards but the term PBP/Tri/Ken/Mec variant was thought to be too cumbersome to type or say so it was/is usually shortened to the two classifications whose cards/baggies the variant figure turned up the most in eg. PBP/Mec.

As even more collectors got interested in variations and eBay and board sellers noticed these figures sold for more money than their usual counterparts the terms Tri, Pal, Trilogo, PBP etc. became almost interchangeable when referring to no coo figures leading to confusion when classifying the figures.

In summary here is how I ‘understand’ and attempt to use these variation classifications:

Tri variant (not Trilogo variant) = a variation found on later Palitoy (typically Palitoy 45C & 65D) & Trilogo cards
Pal variant = variation initially found on earlier Palitoy cards (some ESB & sometimes ROTJ cards)
PBP variant = a figure found on PBP cards and/or a PBP manufactured figure (made in Spain)
Mec variant = variation found on Meccano cards (or included in Meccano products)

China, Taiwan, Macau/Macao, Hong Kong / HK, Lili Ledy / Ledy, MIM = (Kenner) Made In Mexico, Brazil / Glasslite, Harbert, Toltoys, Poch, Top Toys etc. etc. are all pretty self-explanatory.

Most of the info above came from old Imperial Outpost threads, unfortunately the forums no longer exist Sad so apologies if I have anything slightly wrong.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Walrusman, I always use this picture and ‘forget’ about coo’s (I’m of the opinion coo’s are pretty much ‘irrelevant’ in this case):
Walrus Man - Page 2 2649916610063300857S600x600Q85
Left: Pal variant (the most ‘normal’ coloured no coo Walrusman variant, can be found on ‘earlier’ Palitoy cards with coo numbers 3 & 5)
Middle: PBP/Mec variant [most noticeable light green skin, found on Made In Spain Kenner 77backs (hence PBP made) and in baggies included in Special Offer Meccano Imperial Troop Transporters (Mec), found with coo numbers 3,4 & ‘rarely’ 5].
Right: Tri/PBP [or PBP/Tri putting the manufacturer first, made in Spain (PBP), found on some late Palitoy cards (eg. Edd’s) hence Tri (see above), on Made In Spain Kenner 77backs, & in baggies (included in Meccano products too?) etc. coo’s 3 & 5]

Phew!
Rog Smile
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15, 2011 7:45 pm

Rog, That's a great explination mate, Thanks

Do you think the Pal/Tri variant was also made by PBP or POCH and then given to Palitoy to card, which would explain the COO's.
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15, 2011 7:59 pm

@snaggletooth wrote:
Rog, That's a great explination mate, Thanks

Do you think the Pal/Tri variant was also made by PBP or POCH and then given to Palitoy to card, which would explain the COO's.

Yep PBP supplied other countries with figures for a certain period of time.

There is evidence of this with the figures on "made in spain" Kenner cards specifically produced for the US market (like the one that started this thread), on Palitoy carded figures produced for the UK and also some figures sold in France, I would hesitate to say that PBP produced the majority of the line as it appears to be only a certain amount of figures (some late ESB-early ROTJ & the odd reissue cantina aliens)

It is also said that the production tools used in Spain to manufacture the toys made their way to Mexico where production continued for the latter part of the line (A change backed up by the origin of the last 2 ROTJ figures *Paploo and Lumat* which were both produced in Mexico only)
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15, 2011 8:12 pm

Thanks Joe, I'm glad some of the things I'm coming out with are making sence to others and not just me Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15, 2011 8:21 pm

I am not 100% sure of all the variant coo's and which cards they appear on but yep I am almost certain Spain produced the cantina aliens at least for Palitoy at one point, although I think you can find lot's of different variants on the same cards which doesn't help, it instead probably shows that production origin changed over time for some reason.

There are a lot of gaps of knowledge on the production side of things for Europe (although as you can see Panastur is always at hand to help and he really does know a lot more than most) I still think that certain things might never be known (specifics on production numbers, countries the figures were sent to for packaging, duration of production etc) so there will always be a certain amount of assumption however until more is known. While loose figure variants hold little interest for me I appreciate and understand how much work goes into tracking the origins down.

If MOC collectors put their minds to it and got their cameras and notepads out to help each time someone asks "what is this variant/where does this figure come from" we would probably have 90% of the answers already lol

Unfortunately MOC collectors can be quite lazy and I think it's safe to assume many really don't care about the characteristics of the figure that sits in the bubble of their MOC Wink

(Although I will tell you that trying to read let alone take a picture of a figures COO within a bubble is extremely annoying head bang head bang so it's no wonder they can't be bothered!)
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Panastur
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PostSubject: COO Variant   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 5:13 am

Hi Guys,

Very interesting post. As said, i am not too much in COO varation but you learn something new everyday with this kind of discussion. So keep go on...

To Mike-Skywalker; Hi Mike Very Happy

You are right about the WM found in baggie for the french "FREE FIGURE" promotion that came in the DV cardboard box.
But i am almost sure this is a Spanish production. I still have to confirm this with the owner of a similar promotional box...
What really makes me doubt is that a mold was modified only for a couple of thousand DSD figures. Too costly for a single figure with that finish.... Unfortunately, no surviving carded DSD example is know to exist on PBP spanish card, not even a loose cardback. It will be dificult to know exactely the origin of this figure.


To Joe_O; Hi Joe Very Happy

Great work on your Trilogo website. I will e-mail you soon with a new discovery for 70C(UK/USA) list.

@Joe_O wrote:


Yep PBP supplied other countries with figures for a certain period of time.

There is evidence of this with the figures on "made in spain" Kenner cards specifically produced for the US market (like the one that started this thread), on Palitoy carded figures produced for the UK and also some figures sold in France, I would hesitate to say that PBP produced the majority of the line as it appears to be only a certain amount of figures (some late ESB-early ROTJ & the odd reissue cantina aliens)

It is also said that the production tools used in Spain to manufacture the toys made their way to Mexico where production continued for the latter part of the line (A change backed up by the origin of the last 2 ROTJ figures *Paploo and Lumat* which were both produced in Mexico only)

Totally true; Not all the figures were produced by the spanish company. Most of them were exported to France and U.K.

Now, there's some urban legends like the Far-East molds threw to the see or the one you mentioned that part of the spanish molds were sent to the Mexican plant...
This is totally wrong; When decision was taken to move the production from the Far-East, Mexico and Spain made test production like Paploo and Lumat for Mexico and the 4 Cantina Aliens for Spain. This last was not convincing because the cheap packaging used on them.
Mexico and Spain produced action figures till end of 85. Lumat and Paploo was also produced in Spain (Remember the Ewok Warriors???)

JC Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 6:22 am

Hi guys

This is a nice thread , but i'm a little overvelemd by all the info on companys, cards, ccc and scars .

So i thougth i just kick this in the ccc debate

I have two loose red Snaggs with ROTJ hybrid 70 back cards . Made in Hong Kong
I can rember i brought them as moc's back in the 80's . I had never had the Snagg so it was very big for me finding a lot off the red Snaggs in this toy shop in Denmark. I can remember i thoght about bying more just to get the laser rifel for some of my loose storm troopers that had no weapons Smile

Any way here is the deal : I just checked the ccc Its (c)GMFG 1978 down left leg And one has a "clean" scar and the other still has the Hong and then the scar.

I'm just thinking that the two othervise identical figz ( on first glanse ) on the same card . Was from the same mold , then the two scars would be the same . So there where maybe more then one mold on the factory ?
I had an ekstar look at em . And the two heads are not the same and the arms on them are noth the same either ( Both head and arms has difrent "press" lines form the molds )
It is also wired that the cardback says made in Hong Kong , but the CCC has been taking off , even when its say Hong on one of the figz

What do you guys think off this ?

( I have not had any loose Red Snagg or RS cardbacks since . So this is the two figz that came with the cardbacks i'm 100% shure on this )



If you want pictures off the cards og figz let me know

Thanks

Soren
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 6:41 am

@Panastur wrote:

Now, there's some urban legends like the Far-East molds threw to the see or the one you mentioned that part of the spanish molds were sent to the Mexican plant...
This is totally wrong; When decision was taken to move the production from the Far-East, Mexico and Spain made test production like Paploo and Lumat for Mexico and the 4 Cantina Aliens for Spain. This last was not convincing because the cheap packaging used on them.
Mexico and Spain produced action figures till end of 85. Lumat and Paploo was also produced in Spain (Remember the Ewok Warriors???)

That is interesting JC, so you are sure they were both producing toys at the same time and not Spain first then Mexico? The later released "correct" PBP Lumat cards say Made in Mexico do they not? How much can we trust in those cardback COO's?

I think Wolff has come to the same conclusion about Mexico producing figures for Spain at the end of the line as a lot of figures that look really similar to Ledy figures are found in Spain.

I wish Steve York was still around, he was the one that published the "Spanish molds sent to Mexico" rumour on his RS Ledy guide a long time ago!

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PostSubject: COO Variant   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 6:54 am

Hi Soren,

Remember that a mold, even from steel, erodes slowly and must be re-tooled or changed after a long run of high presured/temp plastic injection.
In the case of Snaggletooth, one of the most produced figure, molds should be changed several times.

Take the first figure molded from a new mold and the last one issued at the end of the mold life and you will see a tremendous difference in the charpness of the sculpt.

At the time, mold were made with a mechanized pantograph system, driven by a human hand. Not like today where molds are designed and tooled with computers.
It's normal that changes appears from one mold to another. The Rebel Commander is another example where changes are significants.

Hope that helps.

JC Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:10 am

@Joe_O wrote:


That is interesting JC, so you are sure they were both producing toys at the same time and not Spain first then Mexico? The later released "correct" PBP Lumat cards say Made in Mexico do they not? How much can we trust in those cardback COO's?

I think Wolff has come to the same conclusion about Mexico producing figures for Spain at the end of the line as a lot of figures that look really similar to Ledy figures are found in Spain.

I wish Steve York was still around, he was the one that published the "Spanish molds sent to Mexico" rumour on his RS Ledy guide a long time ago!


hi Joe,

Yes, they produced toys at the same time, Mexico for the american market and Spain for the european market. That's the way they shortened costs in production.
Now about the Mexican Lumat; I don't know what kind of COO he does have, but the early Lumat released on the spanish "Warrior" card don't have a COO at all, not even a scare. ¿Does it mean they produced the figure as they received it??? Don't know....a real mistery!!!

Once they corrected the card picture; ¿Did they changed the COO printed on the card because they imported the figure from Mexico or they simply copied the card as they received it from Palitoy???? Another mistery...

JC
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:13 am

As far as I am aware there are no COO markings on many of the POTF figures outside of a date marking, Paploo and Lumat also have no COO.

There was a recent variation spotted with the Paploo figure but I believe both can be found on cards/bags Made in Mexico.

Too many mysteries Sad

PS- Looking forward to your email about a new 70C addition!
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Panastur
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PostSubject: COO Variant   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:25 am

@Joe_O wrote:
As far as I am aware there are no COO markings on many of the POTF figures outside of a date marking, Paploo and Lumat also have no COO.

There was a recent variation spotted with the Paploo figure but I believe both can be found on cards/bags Made in Mexico.

Too many mysteries Sad

PS- Looking forward to your email about a new 70C addition!

...No even a date marking.

Walrus Man - Page 2 Img6760h

¿Does someone have a Lumat with some kind of marking??? It seems that all Lumat are the same..... unsure unsure unsure
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:31 am

I just sold all my POTF loose so couldn't remember about a date marking on the Ewoks but apparently they didn't have any :

Walrus Man - Page 2 Nocoo_brown

Is that Lumat you pictured an Ewok warrior card JC? Maybe you could take some good shots of the figure and its accessories to see if its any different to a Mexican Lumat?
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PostSubject: COO Variant   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:34 am

I will ask for. I am not the owner of this figure.... Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:35 am

Damn, well, you will get a Warrior card one day Wink Did you find a Paploo moc yet? Cool
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PostSubject: COO Variant   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:39 am

@Joe_O wrote:
Damn, well, you will get a Warrior card one day Wink Did you find a Paploo moc yet? Cool

Buuuu doh , you are asking too much... Paploo is maybe the hardest to find...even in picture!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 7:42 am

I think I would pay just to see a picture! Laughing

Imagine having them both side by side! Surprised
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 11:35 am

Some great and informative information in this thread especially Rog's and Panastur's Cool
Here are the 3 different light green Wally's and their different coo's:
Walrus Man - Page 2 Picture377
..'Date & scar underneath'.............'No markings at all'................'1' remaining and scar'
Walrus Man - Page 2 Picture380Walrus Man - Page 2 Picture379Walrus Man - Page 2 Picture378
..And here is my light green baggie from the French playsets i am guessing...
(His coo is the second in my pictures with no markings)
Walrus Man - Page 2 Picture381Walrus Man - Page 2 Picture382
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16, 2011 1:24 pm

Thanks for the info JC

Makes more sese now Smile

Soren
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17, 2011 7:40 am

Lumat and Paploos which were produced in Spain for the European market.....

Very interesting, as i always assumed that all Lumats and Paploo figures were produced in Mexico.

Is this assumption based upon the fact that the early PBP Trilogo cards for these ewoks ("Ewok Warrior" cards) did not have "Made in Mexico" written on the cards?

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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17, 2011 12:39 pm

@Panastur wrote:
Hi Guys,

Very interesting post. As said, i am not too much in COO varation but you learn something new everyday with this kind of discussion. So keep go on...


To Joe_O; Hi Joe Very Happy

Great work on your Trilogo website. I will e-mail you soon with a new discovery for 70C(UK/USA) list.

@Joe_O wrote:


Yep PBP supplied other countries with figures for a certain period of time.

There is evidence of this with the figures on "made in spain" Kenner cards specifically produced for the US market (like the one that started this thread), on Palitoy carded figures produced for the UK and also some figures sold in France, I would hesitate to say that PBP produced the majority of the line as it appears to be only a certain amount of figures (some late ESB-early ROTJ & the odd reissue cantina aliens)

It is also said that the production tools used in Spain to manufacture the toys made their way to Mexico where production continued for the latter part of the line (A change backed up by the origin of the last 2 ROTJ figures *Paploo and Lumat* which were both produced in Mexico only)

Totally true; Not all the figures were produced by the spanish company. Most of them were exported to France and U.K.

JC Wink

I'm a little confused by your post mate, theres some great info in this thread but It's a lot to take in. Do you agree that all 7 WM variants discussed in this thread where made by PBP?

@soren wrote:
Hi guys

I have two loose red Snaggs with ROTJ hybrid 70 back cards . Made in Hong Kong
I can rember i brought them as moc's back in the 80's . I had never had the Snagg so it was very big for me finding a lot off the red Snaggs in this toy shop in Denmark. I can remember i thoght about bying more just to get the laser rifel for some of my loose storm troopers that had no weapons Smile

Any way here is the deal : I just checked the ccc Its (c)GMFG 1978 down left leg And one has a "clean" scar and the other still has the Hong and then the scar.

I'm just thinking that the two othervise identical figz ( on first glanse ) on the same card . Was from the same mold , then the two scars would be the same . So there where maybe more then one mold on the factory ?
I had an ekstar look at em . And the two heads are not the same and the arms on them are noth the same either ( Both head and arms has difrent "press" lines form the molds )
It is also wired that the cardback says made in Hong Kong , but the CCC has been taking off , even when its say Hong on one of the figz

What do you guys think off this ?

Thanks

Soren

I've got both of these figs in my collection mate. This is what I think, PBP made your figs and sent them to who ever made your hybrid card? Palitoy or who ever, they then packaged them on overstock cards cards with HK COO's

I also think the figures have different molds and each mold was edited by PBP, I don't think scar coo's are down to wear as that would add extra plastic to the figures
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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17, 2011 3:35 pm

@snaggletooth wrote:


I'm a little confused by your post mate, theres some great info in this thread but It's a lot to take in. Do you agree that all 7 WM variants discussed in this thread where made by PBP?


I've got both of these figs in my collection mate. This is what I think, PBP made your figs and sent them to who ever made your hybrid card? Palitoy or who ever, they then packaged them on overstock cards cards with HK COO's

I also think the figures have different molds and each mold was edited by PBP, I don't think scar coo's are down to wear as that would add extra plastic to the figures

Hi Snagg,

Sorry for the confusion; I just wanted to say that Spain did not produced all the known action-figures, but from the ones produced, many were exported to U.K. and France to be packaged.

Not all the WalrusMan packaged on "Hybrid Card" are made in Spain. Lot of them were also from Taiwan and Macau.

Mold's wear don't add extra material to the figure, just the sculpted details suffers and ends less sharper than the original.

Sorry for my english. It's not as good as i wish... Embarassed

JC

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PostSubject: Re: Walrus Man   Walrus Man - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17, 2011 4:44 pm

@Panastur wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:


I'm a little confused by your post mate, theres some great info in this thread but It's a lot to take in. Do you agree that all 7 WM variants discussed in this thread where made by PBP?


I've got both of these figs in my collection mate. This is what I think, PBP made your figs and sent them to who ever made your hybrid card? Palitoy or who ever, they then packaged them on overstock cards cards with HK COO's

I also think the figures have different molds and each mold was edited by PBP, I don't think scar coo's are down to wear as that would add extra plastic to the figures

Hi Snagg,

Sorry for the confusion; I just wanted to say that Spain did not produced all the known action-figures, but from the ones produced, many were exported to U.K. and France to be packaged.

Not all the WalrusMan packaged on "Hybrid Card" are made in Spain. Lot of them were also from Taiwan and Macau.

Mold's wear don't add extra material to the figure, just the sculpted details suffers and ends less sharper than the original.

Sorry for my english. It's not as good as i wish... Embarassed

JC


Thanks for the reply JC, I've done a lot of thinking since my last post and get it now Very Happy

This has been a great thread for me and I learned a hell of a lot, Thanks to all

One more quesrtion while where on the subject, The No COO figures from the far east that appear on the Tri cards, are they the figs with the smoothed over COO's(raised bump) or are some of these raised bump PBP?
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