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 Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?

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General Kahn
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PostSubject: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 6:43 am

Hi TIG people

After reading Wampa's rather interesting discussion thread on Boba Fett loose variations, and focusing on the Light Limb Boba Fett and as to wether or not it's a variation or fading, I wondered what your thoughts are on the Green Limb Chewbacca.

Now I have, as I stated in Wampa's thread, that I firmly believe the Light limb Boba Fett is a variation and not a result of fading ( my reasons are in Wampas thread ), however I have never added a Green Limb Chewbacca to my collection as I have always considered this to be a result of plastic degredation.

I know some state it's a result of unstable chemicals in the plastic, my reason is as simple as, who the Hell would ever consider moulding Chewy's torso out of brown plastic and then mould his limbs in green. Seems daft really. :scratch:

What are your thoughts ( or facts ) ?
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 7:02 am

I would like to see some more pictures of green limb chewbacca, only seen a couple, but the one I saw looked like yellowing to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 7:27 am

Most times people see pictures of normal brown chewies side by side with completely green limbed chewbaccas, sure it looks kinda funky but the picture below will prove it is discolouration.

Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? CHEWBACCA12

This cut card Chewie has two discoloured limbs and two "normal" coloured limbs, we don't know the reason for the discolouration/degradation but it is quite clearly just that. The brown limbs turn green over time.

You may well be able to narrow down certain discolouration to a particular time period or a MOC release but at the end of the day the figure is discoloured.

I feel the same about the Fett, I do believe that many of the light "discoloured" fetts show similar COO markings + characteristics but then again that doesn't mean the figure came out of the factory like that.

From what I have seen over the years many bagged fetts seem to exhibit this light limb discolouration and that unfortunately is just a factor of being in the bag and off gassing for so many years.

Curiosities sure but not real variants IMO
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 7:36 am

I think some of you would benefit from this 2008 thread from RS - Variation, prototype or just discoloration?

Luckily a lot of the images are still up even though the thread is pretty old.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 7:50 am

I believe that is pretty much how yellowed brown will look like.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 8:54 am

Green limbs Chewie, Green snake Yoda, Blue pants Prune Face, etc. never left the factory 30 years ago with their current appearings. Nowadays they might have a different look compared to their counterparts which did not discolour, but that doesn't make them 'factory made variants' IMO. Off course, still they might be worth collecting to get some variation - no let's use a different word - change in your collections.

If these figures are variations you have to be consequent, and consider a yellowed Stormtrooper a variation as well. Very Happy

I am not going to repeat things I have written before, I just quote them. Very Happy

And I am always open to discussions...


The missing link
Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? Yodabrowntogreen2

Another green brown snake, representing the repeating cycle of coloured variants discussions. Very Happy
Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? OuroborosStarWars


@Dr Dengar wrote:


Fading is IMO caused by the degradation of pigments in the figures' paints and plastics by visible/UV light. The slow decrease of pigments causes a gradual decrease in colour intensity, something we perceive as fading.
So my guess is that when the blue pigment in the Boba Fett figure degrades, you end up with a lesser blue (faded) figure, not necessarily with a green figure.

Look at the left prune Face below. The green paint of the legs consists of yellow and blue pigments. Just by nature, the yellow pigments absorb more of the energy rich blue/UV light than their blue pigments during time, causing them to degrade faster. We see two things: the green is shifted to blue (less yellow), and the colour is less intense (faded).

Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? IMG_3638


Yellowing is something else. It is caused by chemical oxidation reactions within the plastic, either spontaneously or initiated by (again!) visible/UV light or heat. And once started probably accelerated by temperature fluctuations and humidity. To make a long story short, in the end you have more molecules in the plastic which absorb blue light giving the plastic a yellow appearance.

It would be interesting to see whether the fading of a green pigment (by degradation of the yellow pigments) can be counteracted by yellowing of the plastic. Or maybe that is already the case for the middle and right Prune Face figures. Very Happy


@Dr Dengar wrote:
My 5 cents:

Some paint colours are produced by a combination of different pigments: green (yelow+blue), orange (red+yellow), purple (red+blue). .Each pigment within a paint has a different vulnerability towards chemical degradation and degradation by UV/visible light (photobleaching).

So during time, the absolute and relative amounts of the pigments in a paint will change, causing:
  • a less intense colour (fading)
  • a different colour


This little theory is not the absolute truth, but at least it can explain a lot of the observed colour changes within figures. That's why I like to stick to it unless someone comes with a better theory. Very Happy
  • green (=yellow + blue) to blue (Prune Face limbs): yellow fades away, blue remains.
  • orange (=red + yellow) to yellow (Boba Fett patches): red fades away, yellow remains
  • brown (= red + yellow + blue) to green (Chewbacca limbs, Yoda snake): red fades away, yellow + blue = green remains : GREEN LIMBS + GREEN SNAKE
  • dark blue to light blue (Boba Fett limbs): blue fades away
  • .... and many other examples, I am sure


Sorry this post seems so seriously, its my dark side. Very Happy



@Dr Dengar wrote:
Good discussion guys, I like it.


@Rawlin wrote:
But if it's fading how do you explain that most of the faded bobas still have orange color and not the yellow? My trilogo boba even have darken orange then the other.
Cause it might be that the blue pigment on Boba's limbs degrades faster - resulting in faded limbs - than the red pigment on his patches - which therefore stay orange.

Different pigments have a different vulnerability towards light induced and/or chemical degradation, two processes which both result in fading of colours. The extent to which a pigment is prone to fading depends on the chemical structure of the pigment and the direct chemical ''environment'' which can accelerate reactions and therefore makes things worse. Think about the presence of plastifiers, or free radicals (these are 'molecules' which are chemically very unstable and tend to react with everything in their immediate surroundings. BTW: Radicals can be produced spontaneously from the flame retardants you mentioned a few times).

@Rawlin wrote:

The chewbacca does not look like it have faded, but instead yellowed or gone through the oxidation that usually happens on gold paint. I would be very interested in what happens if I treat on of these chewbaccas.
The green limbs are IMO caused by degradation of the red pigments within the brown paint. Why? Cause you end up with limbs which are green (yellow + blue pigments ''overrule'' the red pigments) and have a less intense ("faded") colour as there is less total pigment.

If the green limbs were caused by yellowing of the plastic, I also would expect to see green limbs, that's true. But the green would be much more intense, as intense as the original brown.
I can not exclude the metal oxidation theory here. But I would expect to see something like that for metallic paints. For instance – like you mentioned - the Leia Gold neck paint tuning green.

@Rawlin wrote:

The discoloration looks different depending on what color it is originally, but if treated it turns back to the normal color. This is hard plastic, the rubbery material have never given me good result.

I don't know exactly what you mean by reversing the colour.It would be interesting to know what kind of results you achieve with your treatments.

In general: Fading of pigments is caused by light and/or chemical reactions.
Fading of pigments can not be reversed, we are talking irreversible chemical reactions. It is like rebuilding burnt trees from their ashes.

Like fading, yellowing is also caused by light and/or chemical reactions. The nature of yellowing is different however. During yellowing chemical reactions happen within the plastic (not the dyes!) yielding new molecules which absorb blue light (and therefore seems yellowish).

Yellowing can be reversed by strong oxidizing agents like hydrogenperoxide or bleach. Basically you destroy the newly formed molecules which absorb the blue light. You end up with a bright white figure. However by doing so, the plastic is exposed to some aggressive oxidizing agents, thereby laying the seeds for (even more) future yellowing. On different fora, I have seen pictures of yellow Stormtroopers becoming minty white after a peroxide bath. Always amazing to see, but I would like to see pictures of the same treated Stormtroopers 2 years later. The treatment might be worse than the illness in this case.


Another Green Chewie
Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? GreenChewbacca
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 1:03 pm

The way I see it, if it didnt leave the factory that way, then its either discolored or fading. I can see the fasination on wanting them to be variants, because I use to think certain ones were. But after doing research and listening to the guys on RS at the time, I got the meaning behind the madness. Wish I still had the pix to go with it, but I had a marbled Fett one time that looked cool as hell. The way it faded was it had green and blue marble effect to the plastic. If you ever seen a marble countertop you'll know what I'm talking about.

Now there is one variant I stood behind. Everyone, even Tom Derby, said it was discolored was the white headdress Teebo. I got it in a huge lot and asked questions on it on what it was. Everyone who commented said discolored or fading but it didnt show any sign of it being that way. The colors were backwards compared to the normal one, the skull was white and the teeth brown instead of the other way around. A few years later, this was found by Ron Salvatore

Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? Teebo_10

After this was found, it is now classified as a varient. Funny thing is, I was asking about it 2 years prior to the baggie being found and was told it was just discolored.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 1:10 pm

That teebo is pretty cool. Gonna have to check mine just to be sure Razz

The yellowed snake looks extra fierce, like it's more poisoned one.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 1:15 pm

Claes, I've only seen three besides this one so far. My loose one and one on a Canadian cardbackand one on a US card. I wish I kept all 3 of those things now. Actually, I havent even seen another come up for sale since I bought the 3 I had. If I do, Im on it like white on rice. lol! If I remember right, the number inside the hood was a "3". Theres pix of it somewhere. I'll check RS to find the thread I started for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 1:36 pm

Heres the link to one of them

http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=2938550&Forum=,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=50&Limit=25&Main=2938493&Search=true&where=&Name=19112&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2938550

There was another link to someone else asking about it here
http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=4049067&Forum=,,,,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=11&Limit=25&Main=4048072&Search=true&where=&Name=19112&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post4049067

And then Zombie Chewy

http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=vintageebay&Number=3152656&Forum=,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=46&Limit=25&Main=3152656&Search=true&where=&Name=19112&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3152656
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 4:23 pm

Thanks Smile was a good read and makes sense.

That chewie I wonder if it isn't a fungus attack. Think it's called that in english.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 5:27 pm

All it was was mold on the figure.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13, 2011 5:46 pm

nice, would have sucked with fungus. My rancor got that crap. Thought it was dust first and sold my other good one...
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 1:38 pm

Could the green arms and legs on chewbacca not be an error from the factory ? maybe they used a wrong color plastic ?
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 1:55 pm

I doubt it. If that was the case, there would be alot more out there than there is. And taking a walk down memory lane, I never seen a green limb Chewy in the store, that I recall.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 2:15 pm

[/quote]I doubt it. If that was the case, there would be alot more out there than there is. And taking a walk down memory lane, I never seen a green limb Chewy in the store, that I recall.
[quote]

Yep I can definately agree with that.
How come AFA grade them as variations then when they are so obviously not?
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 2:26 pm

AFA have been going for a long time now, 10 years ago most people didn't know any better and classed it as a variant.

I honestly think it's as simple as that as to why they grade it as a variant yet others they won't.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 3:32 pm

Makes sense.

When I read that RS thread I noticed that there was reference to the Ugnaught purple smock been discoloured, with pretty good evidence to support it, also someone mentioned tan limbed Klaatu, never thought about it, just assumed that it was a variant. Is it?

Gutted that the picture of the purple limbs zombie Bespin Luke was no longer there, that I would love to see!
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 3:53 pm

Maybe you guys are right.

But could a guy on the factory not have fucked up the production so some figures with green legs and arms came out on the market ?

I think the body was maid from one machine, the arms on another machine and the legs on the third machine. They did maybe not get the plastic from the same place and then when they put the parts together they did not look like each other.

They have maid many mistakes on those factories also placed figures on wrong cards and also placed the wrong weapons with them and what about the tie fighter pilot with the deleted stamp on the front of the legs, errors and errors.

But again maybe you guys are right, some stormtroopers also gets yellow after many years.

I have a wicket MOC that have begun to get green spots Shocked

But all those strange difference on the figures makes it also fun to collect.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 4:22 pm

Quote :
I think the body was maid from one machine, the arms on another machine and the legs on the third machine. They did maybe not get the plastic from the same place and then when they put the parts together they did not look like each other

The arms and legs are usually made from the same mould on a sprune tree, borrowed this pic from the gallery:
Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? Top_to10

I guess there could have been a piss taking factory worker, but it's unlikely, and if there was, there would have needed to be a piss taking quality control guy as well.

No, I think it's more than safe to say no green limbed Chewy's ever left the factory.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 4:33 pm

Some memorable quotes from Generals:

General George Patton wrote:


The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.

General Douglas MacArthur wrote:

In war there is no substitute for victory.


@General Kahn wrote:


No, I think it's more than safe to say no green limbed Chewy's ever left the factory.


I fully agree with all those wise words.





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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 5:10 pm

Ah nice that confirms what I thought about the molds. Nice to see such a good picture. Now I wont have to say I think they made arms and legs in same mold anymore Razz

As my opinion I think it's just yellowing on the chewbaccas that make it look like that. Would be fun to treat it and see if it turns normal.

Dr.Dengar I also agree on those lines Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 5:40 pm

@General Kahn wrote:
someone mentioned tan limbed Klaatu, never thought about it, just assumed that it was a variant. Is it?

I don't think so, I lump it in with chewie. Check this for more -

Klaatu
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 6:03 pm

Quote :
Ah nice that confirms what I thought about the molds. Nice to see such a good picture. Now I wont have to say I think they made arms and legs in same mold anymore

Naturally it goes without saying that some figures had seperate moulds for arms and legs, typically the ones with different coloured arms and legs.

And Dr. Dengar, a few memourable quotes from Doctor's:

My Doctor said:
Quote :
No Alex I wont extend your sick note, get back to work you lazy bastard!

Dr. Evazen said:
Quote :
You'll be dead!

Dr.Dengar said:
Quote :
I fully agree with all those wise words

Jolly good!
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PostSubject: Re: Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation?   Green Limb Chewbacca - Variation or Degredation? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14, 2011 8:38 pm

LOL! Did your doctor actually say that? Mine would've sorry shit. Laughing

Back to the question at hand. No, the plastic for the limbs came from the same batch. There was no different plastic used for each figure, it wouldn't have been cost efficiant to use different plastic for each seperate toy. Now true, some do age different than others, but its all the same stuff. Same thing on the Klaatu, same plastic, different aging process.

yhea wish I thought of saving the pix on the Luke instead of posting the link. The thing was pure ugly lol!
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