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_Rog_
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 10:54 am

@Panastur wrote:
I am just sceptical about the fact that some Palitoy action figures were packaged in the Far-East factories...I really doubt. Seeing that the first Palitoy JEDI 45 back still packaged in the UK, i have hard to accept this punctual change. As you said, there were too much reasons to keep carding the figures in the UK.
Craig, JC,

I have a few Palitoy ROTJ cardbacks and when looking at the backs for the 'factory stamp' some have them & some don't. Would it be possible that those with (HN, HG, etc.) come ready packed from the Far-East & those that don't were packaged in the UK? It would help explain why for example the scarred PBP/Tri Greedo can be found on one or two 45C's...

Just looking at a few Pal 65 back cardbacks I own, the ones with the factory stamp have bubble tears that indicate bubbles like Craig's Luke Jedi. The few that don't, have bubble 'marks' (they aren't tears - it seems the bubbles were easy to pull off the cards) that show different bubbles, the marks left show they were sealed to the cards much like double stem bubbles, (sealed along the top, either side and a small portion in the bottom middle).
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Chirpa Pal 65A HN, Chirpa Pal 65B --, Bib Fortuna Pal 65C HG, Squid Head Pal 65C --

I only have a couple of Pal 45C's with the factory mark. They similarly have 'heavy' bubble tears, the half dozen others without have the 'light' bubble marks.
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Imperial Stormtrooper (Hoth Battle Gear) Pal45C HN, At-At Driver Pal 45C --

The theory that Palitoy cards may both have been carded in the Far-East and the UK would 'answer' a lot of our questions??

@Panastur wrote:
In May 1977, Palitoy hooked up its own department in Kowloon (Hong Kong). A staff of seventeen employees, including inspectors and engineers were appointed for Quality Control Engineering, Research and Development. The first point was to reduce its suppliers to a very few large and reputable companies. Some of these companies were; Kader Industries (the largest compagny involved in the toy business in HK), Cheung Kong Industries and other old-established suppliers as Mego, Perfekta and Playmates. Tomy Corporation was also a strong partener in plastic injection and small pieces provider.
I was looking at the Kader website a few days ago, it seems to have had a small 'facelift' since I last visited. There's a few snippets of interesting information on their site, and a cool photo of their original factory (hover over 'Our Company' & click 'History') Smile
www.kaderholdings.com

Rog.


Last edited by _Rog_ on Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:05 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Photos added)
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_Rog_
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 1:05 pm

@snaggletooth wrote:
Thanks Rog, If you think of any more would love to know about them.

Do the No COO Pal variants appear on cards Earlier than the ROTJ line and are there any no COO Pal variant's of Bib, Imperial Commander, Leia Bespin. Do you know the different to the Macau?
Hi Scott,

I think in a few cases no coo Pal variants have been found on some ESB cards. I think I've heard of the no coo Pal Greedo for example appearing on 45B's.

The Macau Bib (#4 I think on Wolff's guide) & (Large Head) Imperial Commander are considered to be Tri variants and the Macau Leia, you could perhaps label her as a Tri/Mec variant? There are other no coo variants of these three figures too, the Leia has been called the Pal variant but I can't remember whether the other Imperial Commanders & Bib's are considered to be Pal variants or not.

@snaggletooth wrote:
I've also got a no COO Cloud car pilot(same COO'ish as Ledy) but in the COO Guide the pal variant has the date stamp on the opposite leg. Do you think that mine was made a Macau?

Sorry about all the questions mate but all this info on COO's is right up my street, Scott
No problem about the questions, but I can't really help with this one Wink I haven't seen a CCP card or baggie marked Macau/o. Perhaps another variation collector knows the origin of your figure.

Rog.
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 3:06 pm

@_Rog_ wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
Thanks Rog, If you think of any more would love to know about them.

Do the No COO Pal variants appear on cards Earlier than the ROTJ line and are there any no COO Pal variant's of Bib, Imperial Commander, Leia Bespin. Do you know the different to the Macau?
Hi Scott,

I think in a few cases no coo Pal variants have been found on some ESB cards. I think I've heard of the no coo Pal Greedo for example appearing on 45B's.

The Macau Bib (#4 I think on Wolff's guide) & (Large Head) Imperial Commander are considered to be Tri variants and the Macau Leia, you could perhaps label her as a Tri/Mec variant? There are other no coo variants of these three figures too, the Leia has been called the Pal variant but I can't remember whether the other Imperial Commanders & Bib's are considered to be Pal variants or not.

@snaggletooth wrote:
I've also got a no COO Cloud car pilot(same COO'ish as Ledy) but in the COO Guide the pal variant has the date stamp on the opposite leg. Do you think that mine was made a Macau?

Sorry about all the questions mate but all this info on COO's is right up my street, Scott
No problem about the questions, but I can't really help with this one Wink I haven't seen a CCP card or baggie marked Macau/o. Perhaps another variation collector knows the origin of your figure.

Rog.

Great info there Rog and that link has been a great help mate

The Pal CCP in Wolfs Guide is in that link you sent in your reply but is (not proven 100 % to be Macao(u) yet). If that's the case then there's a good bet mine is the Pal variant Cool

Which Imperial Commander's are considered to be Tri variants, the long hair? and the short hair are considered to be the PBP?



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Craig T
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 5:57 pm

Wow! Some awesome responses on this thread. JC I loved the write up on the actual factories and thanks for the link Rog.

Just to be clear on what I was saying earlier - It is only relevant to Luke Jedi figures. I am not a general variant MOC collector so would have no idea on all ROTJ characters other than Luke Jedi.

But what i can tell you is that there were definately two seperate factories in Hong Kong that made Luke Jedi and a further factory in Tiawan. And for the case of Luke Jedi - all started production at the roughly the same time for pre-movie release.

Hence the Kenner 65-A cards being available from all 3 factories. It appears that the HN began producing parts the earliest as this is the only factory that made a blue sabre. but all three factories made luke initially with a snap cape and in a bubble that contained no tray. Note each factory carded Luke with its on bubble - they are all different dimensions. Further, each factory as a part of QA then updated it own bubble to have an internal tray inside to hold luke tightly and stop his painted face from rubbing.

Thus for each far east factory you have Luke Jedi Phase 1 and Phase 2 Bubbles (Phase 1 never had a tray but Phase 2 always did) - so 6 bubble types in total:

HN Phase 1
HN Phase 2
HT Phase 1
HT Phase 2
TJ Phase 1
TJ Phase 2


These bubble are unquie to the far east factories and should not be confused with european bubbles. European carded figures can be spotted by the absence of a factory code on the back of the card and that the bubble is a standard Pailtoy type. Eurpoean bubble lack the waffling pattern that you get with kenner cards and some far eastern Palitoy cards.

If you find a genuine sealed 65-A Palitoy MOC and it has waffling on the bubble flange - check the back I recon there will be a far east factory stamp conssitent with the factory that made it.


The HN also started producing Palitoy 65-A for the UK and europe market a short while later. I'm estimating at Kenner 65-B/65-C due to the chance of sabre from blue to green and the HN phase 2 luke Jedi bubble with tray inside. More on trays and bubbles below, but the Bubble and tray on a HN Kenner and a HN Palitoy are identical right down to the waffle pattern on the edges.


The production for Luke Jedi would have been extremly high as he was a key charater in the final chapter, so maybe this might been a reason that Palitoy imported carded versions straight from HN.

I am not surrprised that ROTJ 45 backs were carded in UK - these were older figures and could be done there as there was surplus stock from ESB lines. Note also Palitoy did eventually card their own Luke Jedi - but these were later and on Palitoy 65-b and 65-C cards. These cards have UK bubbles like the double stem, or if they are similar to meccano, you will find no waffling on the flange

Before I forget, the factory codes are discussed Kellerman book gives more details on the factory codes (HN, HT, TJ, and the others)

What I have told come from a large collection of Luke Jedi figures more that what I have in my guide (sorry I haven't updated in nearly a year but I will soon)

You will never find a far eastern carded Luke Jedi figure in one MOC that should be from another. These factoires operated independently.

For example if I spotted a Kenner Hong Kong HT Luke Jedi MOC with Tiawan TJ Luke inside then it would be 100% FAKE. It could never had happened. Every Palitoy 65-A and Kenner Luke Jedi MOC from each factory from 65-A upto POTF 93 has a factory stamp

Palitoy 65-B, Palitoy 65-C, and the Tri-logos are differnent as they would carded Luke Jedi with whatever supplies they had at the UK factory

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts too guys!

ROG: me and you need to talk about that Macua Baggie you have - the Jedi need your help! Wink
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08, 2011 7:14 am

@snaggletooth wrote:
@Panastur wrote:
Understand that many late "Made in China" production are from these same HK and Macao factories. Just the name changed.

Thats good to know mate, so we can match up the HK and Macao molds to the china ones and get a more accurate production date/card back. I presume there wasn't any China factorys before 1984.

This also means that all china raised bar figures where made from 1984 for ROTJ/POTF cards or baggies yes?
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08, 2011 7:18 am

Are all figures of POCH cards No COO?
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_Rog_
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 2:52 pm

Hey Scott,

I dunno whether the CCP is ‘proven 100 % to be a Pal variant’ either tongue I don’t think I’ve seen/heard of it coming on Palitoy cards (although it might’ve)...

Dave did a great little write up on the Tri Imperial Commander (as long as it’s got a big round head and no coo it’s the Tri variant IMO regardless of any minor spray-op differences). After checking, I have seen another no coo Imperial Commander (‘scarred’ coo – non Ledy) referred to as a Pal variant but there’s so many Imperial Commander variants it’s hard to pin down what cards/baggies they came from.

Todd & Bill have dated China baggies from 1982-1984 on their Archive baggie guide & the Kader website says they opened a factory in Shekou, southern China in 1983. Perhaps another vendor already had a China factory that Kenner used pre-1983 ??

A lot of Poch figures do have coo's - maybe some Spanish collectors could be more specific.



Hi Craig,

Thanks for the additional write-up on Luke cards & bubbles. Great info.
If anyone else wants to check the Kellerman book for the paragraph on the HN, HT etc. codes it’s on the same page as the black SKU stickers (Special Mention Cards, Page 90). The opposite page, has pictures of coo stickers that were applied to some cardbacks when the original coo printed on the card wasn’t ‘accurate’ enough for the figure inside ... fig. 3.91 shows a HG printed card Wink

The Macau baggied Luke Jedi is awesome! Unfortunately I don’t own one Sad I only have pictures. If you find 2, send one my way Wink Likewise if I spot a couple ... Very Happy

Rog.
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 5:21 pm

@_Rog_ wrote:
Hey Scott,

I dunno whether the CCP is ‘proven 100 % to be a Pal variant’ either tongue I don’t think I’ve seen/heard of it coming on Palitoy cards (although it might’ve)...

Dave did a great little write up on the Tri Imperial Commander (as long as it’s got a big round head and no coo it’s the Tri variant IMO regardless of any minor spray-op differences). After checking, I have seen another no coo Imperial Commander (‘scarred’ coo – non Ledy) referred to as a Pal variant but there’s so many Imperial Commander variants it’s hard to pin down what cards/baggies they came from.

Todd & Bill have dated China baggies from 1982-1984 on their Archive baggie guide & the Kader website says they opened a factory in Shekou, southern China in 1983. Perhaps another vendor already had a China factory that Kenner used pre-1983 ??

A lot of Poch figures do have coo's - maybe some Spanish collectors could be more specific.


Hi Rog, great info again mate. I made a mistake in my last post, my question should have been about POTF not POCH. Not the last 17 but do all the others on POTF cards have no COO?

Scott
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Panastur
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 12, 2011 2:44 am

@snaggletooth wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@Panastur wrote:
Understand that many late "Made in China" production are from these same HK and Macao factories. Just the name changed.

Thats good to know mate, so we can match up the HK and Macao molds to the china ones and get a more accurate production date/card back. I presume there wasn't any China factorys before 1984.

This also means that all china raised bar figures where made from 1984 for ROTJ/POTF cards or baggies yes?

Yes, you mean right.
Luke XW Pilot is maybe the most representative of the last action figures produced in China.

JC
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 12, 2011 2:33 pm

@Panastur wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@Panastur wrote:
Understand that many late "Made in China" production are from these same HK and Macao factories. Just the name changed.

Thats good to know mate, so we can match up the HK and Macao molds to the china ones and get a more accurate production date/card back. I presume there wasn't any China factorys before 1984.

This also means that all china raised bar figures where made from 1984 for ROTJ/POTF cards or baggies yes?

Yes, you mean right.
Luke XW Pilot is maybe the most representative of the last action figures produced in China.

JC

Thanks for the reply JC, what do you make of Rog's last post?

Do you know about any China factory's producing figures before 1984?

@_Rog_ wrote:


Todd & Bill have dated China baggies from 1982-1984 on their Archive baggie guide & the Kader website says they opened a factory in Shekou, southern China in 1983. Perhaps another vendor already had a China factory that Kenner used pre-1983 ??


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Panastur
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13, 2011 3:03 am

@snaggletooth wrote:
@Panastur wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@Panastur wrote:
Understand that many late "Made in China" production are from these same HK and Macao factories. Just the name changed.

Thats good to know mate, so we can match up the HK and Macao molds to the china ones and get a more accurate production date/card back. I presume there wasn't any China factorys before 1984.

This also means that all china raised bar figures where made from 1984 for ROTJ/POTF cards or baggies yes?

Yes, you mean right.
Luke XW Pilot is maybe the most representative of the last action figures produced in China.

JC

Thanks for the reply JC, what do you make of Rog's last post?

Do you know about any China factory's producing figures before 1984?

@_Rog_ wrote:


Todd & Bill have dated China baggies from 1982-1984 on their Archive baggie guide & the Kader website says they opened a factory in Shekou, southern China in 1983. Perhaps another vendor already had a China factory that Kenner used pre-1983 ??



Mmmmmmh, I'm not sure, but 1982-83 seems too early for a Chinese production. I will accept a very late 83 production but definitively not in 1982.
I have no reference about a chinese factory before 1984. Kader Industries was the main provider of the General Mills group, it's possible that production of older action figures was delegated to its new plant in Shekou, in front of HK, in the other side of the Deep Bay.


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andy 34
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 15, 2011 3:53 pm

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the great posts -i am pleased i asked the question now,i think we have all found out some valuable info here,can i ask another question which Luke jedi is the correct early variant that came with the snap cape and blue saber off here. http://www.highasakoit.co.uk/starwars/lukejedi.php.Then i can match the correct figure to the early accessories.
Thanks again and take care.
Andy 34 Very Happy
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 15, 2011 4:53 pm

@andy 34 wrote:
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the great posts -i am pleased i asked the question now,i think we have all found out some valuable info here,can i ask another question which Luke jedi is the correct early variant that came with the snap cape and blue saber off here. http://www.highasakoit.co.uk/starwars/lukejedi.php.Then i can match the correct figure to the early accessories.
Thanks again and take care.
Andy 34 Very Happy

Have a look at Craig's great lime lite mate, its a great reference for anything Luke Jedi
https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t504-craigy-s-luke-jedi-last-updated-02-07-2010
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Craig T
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PostSubject: Re: Erased coo's   Erased coo's - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 16, 2011 9:39 am

@andy 34 wrote:
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the great posts -i am pleased i asked the question now,i think we have all found out some valuable info here,can i ask another question which Luke jedi is the correct early variant that came with the snap cape and blue saber off here. http://www.highasakoit.co.uk/starwars/lukejedi.php.Then i can match the correct figure to the early accessories.
Thanks again and take care.
Andy 34 Very Happy

Andy mate welcome to TIG,

To answer in a nut shell:

All 3 original Kenner Luke Jedi factorys made a snap cape for Luke.

Figure COO:___________________ "Hong Kong"_______ "Made in Hong Kong"_______"Made in Tiawan"
Factory Code on MOC:___________"HN"______________"HT"_____________________"TJ"

Version which has the Snap Cape:__Early 65-A Backs

Just incase you ask - all 3 snap capes are different and unique the factory where they were made.

For the case of TJ (only) the figure will also have a head moulded in face coloured plastic (Moulded Face Luke).

Only the "HN" factory made a Blue Lightsabre. So it should only be paired with a Luke with "Hong Kong" COO on it leg. For consistency you should ensure that this figure has a pink painted face.

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