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 Understanding COOs and Variations

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curch
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PostSubject: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30, 2011 12:18 pm

I see a lot of posts all over the Star Wars world about COOs and variations. I think it can all be very confusing. I am sure I am not the only one that thinks that way. I am going to break out some figures today, take some pics. Maybe some of you guys will spot some cool variations and can shed some light on all of this mess Smile Maybe we can make this some kind of official page. I know we have a lot of COO/Variation pages. But they are all very helpfull. To help everyone understand the pics. I sorted them out into the same COO (hopefully). I then took pics of the fronts, backs and then I just took a pic of 1 COO from the bunch. I did this for most of them. Except for the Jawa. It was too hard with the cape. But you will get the idea. Any questions, please feel free to ask. I tried my best getting pics of the COOs, but I am not a professional photographer Smile

First up today:

Understanding COOs and Variations 088
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soren
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30, 2011 1:24 pm

That is a good idea . To get all the info in one place . Like Joe have done with his great Trilogo.info site .
More info power to the Star Wars people plz Very Happy


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pomse2001
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30, 2011 2:29 pm

Hi Curch, I started a thread about a variant guide some months ago, but now I think it is dead.

But it is a good idea you have.

I have my own site and thread about variants, I hope it can help you.

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t3161-pomse2001-variants
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curch
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30, 2011 3:37 pm

I took more pics today but my Internet is not working right now. I am posting this from my phone. As soon as it is up again I will post
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30, 2011 4:30 pm

Great idea for a thread to have all the figures and there variants in one place curch, what is it your confused about?
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curch
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30, 2011 8:32 pm

I think I am more curious than confused. Would love to know how things happened and where they come from. One of my favorite mysteries is how you guys tell something is Lili Ledy. I stare and stare sometimes wondering Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 5:40 am

@curch wrote:
I think I am more curious than confused. Would love to know how things happened and where they come from. One of my favorite mysteries is how you guys tell something is Lili Ledy. I stare and stare sometimes wondering Smile

I am no lili ledy expert, but maybe this thread can help you with your lili ledy question https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t2135-lili-ledy-discussion-thread
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curch
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 7:32 am

That is fantastic, thank you. Every little bit helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 8:07 am

@curch wrote:
I think I am more curious than confused. Would love to know how things happened and where they come from. One of my favorite mysteries is how you guys tell something is Lili Ledy. I stare and stare sometimes wondering Smile

I think most collectors would love to know how things happened to mate, the problem is a lot of theories out there but people don't agree on the small details.

Here's what I've learned over the last year in breif and heres some great threads that have given me loads of great facts about loose variants and also helped me think up a few theories for my own.

Loose figures where produced in 7 places around the world, HK(China), Taiwan, Mexico, Spain, Brazil, Macau and Japan, there's also theories on other countries.

Hong Kong had at least 2 factories, one produced Made In Hong Kong mold stamps and the other produced Hong Kong mold stamps. China amended the HK molds with the China raised bar, this happened in the ROTJ period when the Britain signed over Hong Kong to China.

Taiwan had 2 mold stamps, Taiwan and Made in Taiwan.

Brazil, dont know anything about these.

Spain had 2 companys. POOCH came first who used HK molds/figures but added new paint jobs. PBP came later and removed the COO's. Spain also made some figs for Kenner ROTJ cards for the US market.

Macau had 3 mold stamps, macau, made in macao and COO's removed.

Mexico used molds from other country's(or copied them) and added there own unique accessories, they can be found with several mold stamps including China, Spain(COO's removed) HK, MIHK, Made in(no COO) and also smoothed over COO's

Japan was Takara and I think had Made in Japan and Japan COO's. They only made this COO(s) on the first few figures.

From some ESB cards Palitoy and Meccano where receiving NO COO figures from HK, Macau and Spain which they then carded for distribution in France and the UK.

Kenner's figs where mainly made in HK with various HK mold stamps. There ROTJ cards also have figures that where made in Spain and Taiwan and last few figures before The last 17 where all made with either NO COO's or a Taiwan mold stamp. The Emperor, AT-ST Driver, B-Wing Pilot, Han Trench Coat, Leia Poncho, Pruneface, Rancor Keeper, Teebo and Wicket have no COO's and and the few figures bewhere also made with no COO's like Han T/C, Leia Poncho,

There's some great work been done by various collectors out there and also some great threads, have a look at these as theres loads of good info on figure production.

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t2135-lili-ledy-discussion-thread

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t891-the-tig-pbp-poch-character-discussion-thread

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t1076-variant-id-help-gamorrean-guard-added

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t3259-erased-coo-s

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t2972-walrus-man

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/vintage-limelights-f6/craigy-s-luke-jedi-last-updated-23-05-2010-t504.htm#7598

http://trilogo.info/
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curch
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 10:32 am

Great links....thank you! Maybe I am just wasting my time then by putting this page together?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 11:58 am

You forgot this one.

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/COO-GUIDE-h21.htm

Even though its not complete and some are questionable of what they are (sans the ? by some), its the most complete guide you can find on the COO's and where they are from.

As for variations, half of the ones that are listed as variations arent one. All they are is fading and discoloration of either the paint or plastic. No one can say what a true variation is no more. When I started on them, there was new ones popping up everyday. I had 4 different marble limb Fetts at one time cause the plastic deteriated in different degrees that made the color different. Are those true variants, no. Like the Green Limb Chewy, that one isnt one either along with the different colored limbs Klaatus. Is the different COOs a variant, yes. Thats something you cant help dispute. Its a visual difference to the figure that makes it stand out. Like the Japan alt sculpts on the C-3PO, Vader, and Stormy. Those were made different from the factory, so those are true variants. All these faded out and discolored figures out there now didnt leave the factory that way 30+ years ago. My childhood Chewy didnt have green limbs, nor did the Leia have pink arms and Yodas snake was orange (which I have no idea what they Euro ones looked like). But all in all, when it comes down to variations, theres no true variation no more. If it wouldnt be so hard to search for something on RS, I could find hundreds of threads on there about variations. But at the end of the day, they would turn out to be just deteriated figures.

Joe, your not waisting your time. You wanted to do something your interested in, but its just that its been done before and you didnt know about it. Its good to have interest in what you like. Hell, Im the same way about comics and comic related figures. But as for COO's and variants, like I said, no one can agree on what really is one and whats not. Tomorrow another will pop up and be the flavor of the week, but the excitment will die down in a day when its just shown its not one. Just keep up your research on it and learn from it. Go back and search old posts if you have thoughts on one and you will probally find the answer your looking for. Theres plenty of good threads here and on RS about this topic, but it just takes time to find them.
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curch
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 12:06 pm

Great stuff and advice guys. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 12:11 pm

Maybe I should just go through my stuff and ask the question, is this ledy or not? Smile I have purchased many collections over the years. Some locally, some world wide. And I think I am just at the point where I want to figure out what I have.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 12:21 pm

The way I classify a variation is weather an "average Joe" from off the street could tell the difference between two figures. Without any coaching as to what to look for. And there I'm talking about sculpts and such. Silver and grey IG-88 for example. Color variations are tough, simply because these figures have been around for so long and plastic does degrade over time. I think we're really lucky to have any white figures that are still white.

As for COOs well they don't change over time so are a legit pursuit, if you're into that sort of thing. Things like that are too tedious and detail oriented for me. Except for certain figures. Sooner or later I'll have to track down the various IG-88 COOs. Gives me an excuse to buy more of the same figures I love Smile .

The joy of this hobby is there's so many different avenues to pursue. Just count yourselves lucky you haven't gotten into bootlegs. Talk about variations!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 2:58 pm

Well, today I went through all of my "first 21" figures too see if any were LL. Now I know they were not all produced for LL, so naturally I was able to cancel some out. The only one that wasn't on this page https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/COO-GUIDE-h21.htm that Chris told me to check out was the Stormtrooper. But I did find some information on this page about the Stormtrooper. http://www.lichtgeschwindigkeit.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3812 But I don't know. I own around 40 Stormtroopers and if this page is correct, I have about 20 LL Stormtroopers then. But I also did find some accessories. I have a question about these if anyone can help. I do believe the first 2 pics to be Ledy?

Understanding COOs and Variations 019
Understanding COOs and Variations 020

But what is this one?
Understanding COOs and Variations 021

And then these 2 with the circle on the magazine?
Understanding COOs and Variations 022


Last edited by curch on Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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snaggletooth
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 3:18 pm

Variants are different for every one and it all depends what you want in your collection. I've got a few discoloured figures in my collection, mainly just there faces but If they have the same COO position but they look different then there in. I try mainly to focus on COO's though but some figs like the At St Driver have very few COO differences so its good to use these figs to bulk them up.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 5:28 pm

@snaggletooth wrote:

Brazil, dont know anything about these.

Brazil manufactured action figures in late 88-89, Glasslite factory.

@snaggletooth wrote:

Spain had 2 companys. POOCH came first who used HK molds/figures but added new paint jobs. PBP came later and removed the COO's. Spain also made some figs for Kenner ROTJ cards for the US market.

Heee...sorry but wrong. POCH (or Novedades Poch) never produced action Figures. It 's only from july 1980, when Poch, Borras and Palouzie fused to create the PBP company that production begun and made it available to the public. Each company from the new formed group kept their logo on the package they had the license to keep buyer confidence. PBP was there from the beginning...
What we can consider a second company is G.M.J.(General Mills Juguetes) when PBP was absorbed by the General Mills company, but here the staff and the factory was the same as it was during the PBP era.

Please, forget about the import of Un-painted figures and the new paint jod. This is just absurd...(no offense, just a bit tired to read this untrue info)

@snaggletooth wrote:

Japan was Takara and I think had Made in Japan and Japan COO's. They only made this COO(s) on the first few figures.

...was Takara for Star Wars, Popy for ESB and Tsukuda for the Jedi line... It's almost confirmed tha the Takara production was done in Taiwan, HK for Popy and a mixed one for Tsukuda.

My 2 Cents

JC Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 6:18 pm

@Panastur wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:

Brazil, dont know anything about these.

Brazil manufactured action figures in late 88-89, Glasslite factory.

@snaggletooth wrote:

Spain had 2 companys. POOCH came first who used HK molds/figures but added new paint jobs. PBP came later and removed the COO's. Spain also made some figs for Kenner ROTJ cards for the US market.

Heee...sorry but wrong. POCH (or Novedades Poch) never produced action Figures. It 's only from july 1980, when Poch, Borras and Palouzie fused to create the PBP company that production begun and made it available to the public. Each company from the new formed group kept their logo on the package they had the license to keep buyer confidence. PBP was there from the beginning...
What we can consider a second company is G.M.J.(General Mills Juguetes) when PBP was absorbed by the General Mills company, but here the staff and the factory was the same as it was during the PBP era.

Please, forget about the import of Un-painted figures and the new paint jod. This is just absurd...(no offense, just a bit tired to read this untrue info)

@snaggletooth wrote:

Japan was Takara and I think had Made in Japan and Japan COO's. They only made this COO(s) on the first few figures.

...was Takara for Star Wars, Popy for ESB and Tsukuda for the Jedi line... It's almost confirmed tha the Takara production was done in Taiwan, HK for Popy and a mixed one for Tsukuda.

My 2 Cents

JC Very Happy


Thanks for the Info on Glasslite and the Japanese production JC, and for putting me right on the POCH/PBP statement, was I right about "POCH came first who used HK figures but added new paint jobs"
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 6:24 pm

Sorry about my last question JC I just noticed your answer about the new paint Jobs. Your saying that all Spanish figures where made in Spain by PBP and that POCH didn't make or sell any previously yes?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01, 2011 6:42 pm

Hi Snagg,

@snaggletooth wrote:

Your saying that all Spanish figures where made in Spain by PBP...

No, not all were produced in Spain. Imported HK (ESB era) were also packaged in Spain.

@snaggletooth wrote:

...and that POCH didn't make or sell any previously yes?

Yes, that's correct. The "POCH" Quality/Garanty seal was printed on the front of the 37/41 back "A" and "B" only to let people know that the new PBP company has a strong background and keep the buyer confidence. This seal desappear with the 37/41 back "C" and the next 45 back.

JC Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02, 2011 1:44 am

@Panastur wrote:

Please, forget about the import of Un-painted figures and the new paint jod. This is just absurd...(no offense, just a bit tired to read this untrue info)

So how do you explain the unique painting of some figures on the Poch cards, like black neck Lando, white pants Rebel Soldier, chocolate brown pants Han Hoth, etc?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02, 2011 7:44 am

@Panastur wrote:
Hi Snagg,

@snaggletooth wrote:

Your saying that all Spanish figures where made in Spain by PBP...

No, not all were produced in Spain. Imported HK (ESB era) were also packaged in Spain.

@snaggletooth wrote:

...and that POCH didn't make or sell any previously yes?

Yes, that's correct. The "POCH" Quality/Garanty seal was printed on the front of the 37/41 back "A" and "B" only to let people know that the new PBP company has a strong background and keep the buyer confidence. This seal desappear with the 37/41 back "C" and the next 45 back.

JC Wink

Mike beat me to my next question JC, so are you saying that all the POCH figures out there are actually PBP early relese?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02, 2011 5:28 pm

@mike-skywalker wrote:
@Panastur wrote:

Please, forget about the import of Un-painted figures and the new paint jod. This is just absurd...(no offense, just a bit tired to read this untrue info)

So how do you explain the unique painting of some figures on the Poch cards, like black neck Lando, white pants Rebel Soldier, chocolate brown pants Han Hoth, etc?

Hi Mike,

There's nothing to explain... As you said, they are unique and prove they are an own production. The first time i read this story of imported "Un-painted" figures i was septic, so I told this story to a former PBP ingeneer that ended his career in Bandai Spain. He gave me undred of reasons to descard this theory, principaly economical reasons. Production of plastic injection was not a problem at the time in Spain and they were able to produce these action figures as cheaper as they were produced in the far east. (This was one of the reasons General Mill decided to move the production from Coalville(UK) to the Spanish plant because the cost relation was of 4 to 1.)

You have to understand that from 1980 to mid-1985, PBP was an independent company producing toys under licenses. PBP was not property of the Generall Mills Group like Palitoy(bought in 1968 by the GM group). PBP produced their own toys with their own tools. Now, it's possible they made molds from the same Master used in the Far-east factories, HK in this case.

During the Jedi era, it was usual to produce in one land and then to assemble in another (France<->UK), but it was only applicable to ships, playsets and accessories, NEVER for action Figures....

Hope that helps,

JC Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03, 2011 7:48 am

@Panastur wrote:


Yes, that's correct. The "POCH" Quality/Garanty seal was printed on the front of the 37/41 back "A" and "B" only to let people know that the new PBP company has a strong background and keep the buyer confidence. This seal desappear with the 37/41 back "C" and the next 45 back.

JC Wink

JC do you know if these POCH variants where also found on PBP cards without the POCH Quality/Garanty seal?

Rebel Soldier Black boots, lando black neck etc

Any one else got any Ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03, 2011 11:24 am

[quote="Panastur"]Takara production was done in Taiwan, [quote]

Your wrong there. Takara was made in Japan. Taiwan is in China the last time I looked. Why would they have Made in Japan on it if it was made in Taiwan? That dont make a bit of sense. The should be stamped Made in Taiwan instead of Made in Japan, no? There was 4 figures that were made in Japan stamped that.

1. Alt sculpt Vader

2. Alt sculpt C-3PO

3. Alt sculpt Stormtrooper

4. Wind-up R2-D2

All the others from there might have been made in other places, but those just had the Takara stickers on them are they were produced. And those were US releases anyway. Just like the Tsukudas. They were US released figures with the sticker on the back. Nothing special about them except for the stickers. As for the Popys, the only thing made in Japan on those are the boxes and inserts. The figure and bags were made where ever they were made, most were from Hong Kong. Where did you get the info that they were made in Taiwan (China)?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations I_icon_minitime

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