The Imperial Gunnery Forum
The Imperial Gunnery Forum
The Imperial Gunnery Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.


International Vintage Star Wars Collector Forum
 
HomeTIG.comSearchRegisterLog in

Share
 

 Understanding COOs and Variations

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Panastur
Imperial Lieutenant
Imperial Lieutenant
Panastur

Posts : 162
Join date : 2010-11-28
Location : Spain

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 3:32 am

[quote="Chris_J"][quote="Panastur"]Takara production was done in Taiwan,
Quote :


Your wrong there. Takara was made in Japan. Taiwan is in China the last time I looked. Why would they have Made in Japan on it if it was made in Taiwan? That dont make a bit of sense. The should be stamped Made in Taiwan instead of Made in Japan, no? There was 4 figures that were made in Japan stamped that.

1. Alt sculpt Vader

2. Alt sculpt C-3PO

3. Alt sculpt Stormtrooper

4. Wind-up R2-D2

All the others from there might have been made in other places, but those just had the Takara stickers on them are they were produced. And those were US releases anyway. Just like the Tsukudas. They were US released figures with the sticker on the back. Nothing special about them except for the stickers. As for the Popys, the only thing made in Japan on those are the boxes and inserts. The figure and bags were made where ever they were made, most were from Hong Kong. Where did you get the info that they were made in Taiwan (China)?

Hi Chris,

Of course, these 3 alternate sculpts are know to be made in Japan. They are the exception and there's no dubt on it. All the others are regular HK/Taiwan production.
(I won't considere the wind-up R2 as an alternative to the real one carded on Takara stickered card)
I already said in another post that years ago i talk with Japanese collector and he confimed me that the production, general speaking, was imported.
Now, i can't confirm this info. Takara/Popy/Tsukuda are not my focus. I am more in the european stuff....

Again, sorry for the confusion.

JC
Back to top Go down
wbobafett
Force Addict
Force Addict
wbobafett

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2009-11-20

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 3:49 am

@Panastur wrote:

Please, forget about the import of Un-painted figures and the new paint jod. This is just absurd...(no offense, just a bit tired to read this untrue info)


Hey JC,

yeah...thats mainly my fault I think! Cannot even edit that post anymore.

The theory was based on follwing observations:

There were 2 totally production lines in Spain. First production in the Poch/PBP 31 and 37/41 A back area! Second on all later cards (37/41c, 47 and ROTJ, not sure about the "b" cards)!

What is the difference:
Early Production: All figures painted in Spain, all figures have HK coo, all figures have plastic used that are equal to HK production).

Later production: SOME figures have scars. These have totally new material used. On the other hand simply Taiwan made figures were imported and packed on PBP cards.

So if both productions started with the injection mold in spain there is lots of questions IMO:
- why use different steelmolds. What happend to the old ones?? Why not just alter the coo on the steelmolds?
- why produce totally different figures with different material, steelmold and paint scheme used? Like on Han Hoth, Rebel Soldier, Lando bespin?? (Han hoth has the same steelmold btw, but the other dont have)
- why produce 37 characters on their own and later produce less characters and sometimes totally different characters????

Something happend between these 2 production areas, and I still dont get it. The theorie of starting with just painting and packaing was simply the best solution IMO. Better then changing steel molds for no obvious reason beeing in the middle of producing ESB.

So I do believe you JC: They had the skills to produce them on their own from the start...but questions remain: why change the whole production process for no obvious reason?? Too expensive?? Kenner wasnt happy with the stuff they made?? I really would like to know that!
Back to top Go down
wbobafett
Force Addict
Force Addict
wbobafett

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2009-11-20

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 3:55 am

@snaggletooth wrote:
@Panastur wrote:


Yes, that's correct. The "POCH" Quality/Garanty seal was printed on the front of the 37/41 back "A" and "B" only to let people know that the new PBP company has a strong background and keep the buyer confidence. This seal desappear with the 37/41 back "C" and the next 45 back.

JC Wink

JC do you know if these POCH variants where also found on PBP cards without the POCH Quality/Garanty seal?

Rebel Soldier Black boots, lando black neck etc

Any one else got any Ideas?

To be correct. there is nothing like POCH cards. Even the 31back, the first card released in spain has PBP written on the back! These are all PBP but the term POCH is used for the cards produced with the POCH emblem on the front! These are: 31, 37/41a and b backs. 37/41c has already no poch logo on it anymore!

This doesnt have to go with the figures that appeared on it, but it seems like in that case this really goes together!

Definatley there appeared so called PBP figures on 41 backs. And there is proof of Poch figures on 37/41a backs. So the question remains with the b and c cards...I have seen way to less of them but Im pretty sure by now that already on the c cards you can find so called PBP figures!

edit: To be short: No, not one so called Poch variant has been found on a so called PBP card.
Back to top Go down
Panastur
Imperial Lieutenant
Imperial Lieutenant
Panastur

Posts : 162
Join date : 2010-11-28
Location : Spain

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 5:09 am

@wbobafett wrote:

Hey JC,

What is the difference:
Early Production: All figures painted in Spain, all figures have HK coo, all figures have plastic used that are equal to HK production).

Hi Wolff,

I really wish you could compare two early HK Lando, a Kenner 31 back and a PBP/Poch 37/41 back.
Yes, molds are indentical because none of the HK and PBP factory made the mold. These molds are made from a master mold, then, COO is individualy stamped inside the mold. These stamp have the same font and were stamped with the same intensity. But, if you look closely, there are not in the same place. Even if they took the care to place the COO at the same place, they wasn't able to make it.

Another thing; Material. Believe me, they are not the same. Chest, legs, arms and head have a different texture, not only color.

Both are HK, same period of production (1980) ,each freshly taken from a carded example. Too many differences to say they are from the same factory...

¿Why PBP didn't altered the mold???? Really don't know. Maybe not a priority, maybe the rush to produce these figures as cheap as possible,...who knows??

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Landopbppoch Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Landohk


@wbobafett wrote:

Later production: SOME figures have scars. These have totally new material used. On the other hand simply Taiwan made figures were imported and packed on PBP cards.

So if both productions started with the injection mold in spain there is lots of questions IMO:
- why use different steelmolds. What happend to the old ones?? Why not just alter the coo on the steelmolds?
- why produce totally different figures with different material, steelmold and paint scheme used? Like on Han Hoth, Rebel Soldier, Lando bespin?? (Han hoth has the same steelmold btw, but the other dont have)
- why produce 37 characters on their own and later produce less characters and sometimes totally different characters????

Something happend between these 2 production areas, and I still dont get it. The theorie of starting with just painting and packaing was simply the best solution IMO. Better then changing steel molds for no obvious reason beeing in the middle of producing ESB.

So I do believe you JC: They had the skills to produce them on their own from the start...but questions remain: why change the whole production process for no obvious reason?? Too expensive?? Kenner wasnt happy with the stuff they made?? I really would like to know that!

Yes, maybe you get right about the fact that Kenner never get satisfied with the spanish production; lack of copyright on packaging, poor material and paint details,...
Don't forget that Kenner tested the spanish production with the 4 cantina aliens but discarded this option because the poor quality of the final product.

There will be always questions why these changes in the production. That's our job to try answer these mysteries...

JC
Back to top Go down
wbobafett
Force Addict
Force Addict
wbobafett

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2009-11-20

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 am

@Panastur wrote:
@wbobafett wrote:

Hey JC,

What is the difference:
Early Production: All figures painted in Spain, all figures have HK coo, all figures have plastic used that are equal to HK production).

Hi Wolff,

I really wish you could compare two early HK Lando, a Kenner 31 back and a PBP/Poch 37/41 back.
Yes, molds are indentical because none of the HK and PBP factory made the mold. These molds are made from a master mold, then, COO is individualy stamped inside the mold. These stamp have the same font and were stamped with the same intensity. But, if you look closely, there are not in the same place. Even if they took the care to place the COO at the same place, they wasn't able to make it.

Another thing; Material. Believe me, they are not the same. Chest, legs, arms and head have a different texture, not only color.

Both are HK, same period of production (1980) ,each freshly taken from a carded example. Too many differences to say they are from the same factory...

¿Why PBP didn't altered the mold???? Really don't know. Maybe not a priority, maybe the rush to produce these figures as cheap as possible,...who knows??

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Landopbppoch Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Landohk

Hey JC,

I think you got me wrong in some ways...so Ill try and write better ..maybe! I also have some corrections.

1. There is indeed a few different MIHK coos on Landos. But nevertheless the exact same steelmold was used for regular HK/Kenner landos as on the Poch Lando. I have a similar Kenner pendant to my Poch. The ones you showed are indeed different.

2. Not all steelmolds were copied and then stamped IMO. There is far too less different coos on some. the mold Poch used and the mold used by the factory in HK are the same! The stamps then had to be stamped in before these were copied for spain.

In general I think only the first batch of steelmolds were stamped after duplicated. The later ones duplicated were duplicted from the already stamped ones! Thats the reason why we have altered coos like scarred out, raised bar etc.


3. My question was and still is (and I think nobody can explain this): Why did PBP acquired different molds in the later production and altered the coo. Why didnt they just altered the coo on the stellmolds they already produced the Poch figures in it??? Thats exactly the problem...its not cheaper....and not faster...its very unlogical.
If you already have a batch of steelmolds why buy/make new ones??

4. You should be right on the material. The differences are tiny and its also never sure how many changes in material the HK producers made. To checkk 500.000 Landos would be a solution..haha..

Seriously: I believe in your words. 31 back figures are already produced in spain...completely. Still its a big riddle why they started a whole new production later...with different steelmolds, different plastic material and different colors and that even on same characters. Something happend...but what??





Back to top Go down
snaggletooth
Grand Moff
Grand Moff
snaggletooth

Posts : 997
Join date : 2010-12-06
Location : North Wales

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 8:07 am

@wbobafett wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:
@Panastur wrote:


Yes, that's correct. The "POCH" Quality/Garanty seal was printed on the front of the 37/41 back "A" and "B" only to let people know that the new PBP company has a strong background and keep the buyer confidence. This seal desappear with the 37/41 back "C" and the next 45 back.

JC Wink

JC do you know if these POCH variants where also found on PBP cards without the POCH Quality/Garanty seal?

Rebel Soldier Black boots, lando black neck etc

Any one else got any Ideas?

To be correct. there is nothing like POCH cards. Even the 31back, the first card released in spain has PBP written on the back! These are all PBP but the term POCH is used for the cards produced with the POCH emblem on the front! These are: 31, 37/41a and b backs. 37/41c has already no poch logo on it anymore!

This doesnt have to go with the figures that appeared on it, but it seems like in that case this really goes together!

Definatley there appeared so called PBP figures on 41 backs. And there is proof of Poch figures on 37/41a backs. So the question remains with the b and c cards...I have seen way to less of them but Im pretty sure by now that already on the c cards you can find so called PBP figures!

edit: To be short: No, not one so called Poch variant has been found on a so called PBP card.

Hi Wolf, great to see you posting on TIG again mate and thanks for your thoughts on The POCH figures but I'm a bit confused by your answer.

You are saying POCH figures only appeared on 31, 37/41a and b backs and these cards have PBP and POCH logos? Once the POCH logo disappeared so did these figures?




Back to top Go down
snaggletooth
Grand Moff
Grand Moff
snaggletooth

Posts : 997
Join date : 2010-12-06
Location : North Wales

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 8:25 am

@wbobafett wrote:
3. My question was and still is (and I think nobody can explain this): Why did PBP acquired different molds in the later production and altered the coo. Why didnt they just altered the coo on the stellmolds they already produced the Poch figures in it??? Thats exactly the problem...its not cheaper....and not faster...its very unlogical.
If you already have a batch of steelmolds why buy/make new ones??

Just some Ideas to throw in but all the molds moved around from factory to factory and probably not at any real cost. PBP could have just made a batch of Landos and then sent the mold on to the next factory. The next time they received a Land mold they had all ready started removing the COO's. I'm not saying that new molds didn't get made/copied but there would be no real benefit from this? just get a mold, fill in the COO, make a batch or two and then send the mold on to the next factory.

Back to top Go down
curch
Imperial Admiral
Imperial Admiral
curch

Posts : 510
Join date : 2011-02-12
Age : 45
Location : Drums, Pa. USA

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 8:30 am

I think I am more confused now than when I first started this thread Smile All I basically wanted to know is what I had and what kind of card/country it came from. The Ledy stuff really interests me. Stuff is very mysterious. And before I started moving some of my vintage I really wanted to know if I possibly had some. Now we have all this other stuff in the mix. I literally have around 2,000 loose vintage figures. They came locally and all around the world over many years. It is now time for me to make space. But before doing that I wanted to know what I had. If I had an interesting variant, I wanted to keep it. If I had something that was not US released, I wanted to keep it. Now I just really don't know what to think of all this. :I am stupid:
Back to top Go down
Chris_J
Force Addict
Force Addict
Chris_J

Posts : 4227
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 49
Location : US

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 8:51 am

As far as telling what card a loose figure came off of, its really hard to tell unless it came right off the card. People have tried to figure it out for years and theres just no way to do it. Theres just too many varibles to consider, like which COO came from where and when, etc., etc. But the best way to tell what you got is to post up some good clear pix. Someone here will be able to tell if you got a Ledy, Euro variant, or a plain old Kenner. Hope this helps out. Sorry, I didnt got to the first page first to see all the shots up. Nice figures, by the way.

And you'll have to excuse these guys. When they see the word variant, they loose their freaking mind and derail a simple question quick. Like there isnt 20 threads already with the same thing in it.
Back to top Go down
http://alter-egos.forumotion.com/
curch
Imperial Admiral
Imperial Admiral
curch

Posts : 510
Join date : 2011-02-12
Age : 45
Location : Drums, Pa. USA

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 8:56 am

Thanks Chris. That is just what I am going to do next time Smile I thought posting some pics up on this thread would have helped. But nobody said anything, so I guess I had nothing special in this batch Smile
Back to top Go down
Chris_J
Force Addict
Force Addict
Chris_J

Posts : 4227
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 49
Location : US

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 9:02 am

You probally do, but as I said, its really hard to tell since most of the COOs were used every where until they started to erase them or scar them out. I know that the C-3POs arent Ledy already. Laughing They had screws in their backs. If you havent looked yet, go up to the top of the page into the interactive section. Theres pages for Ledy and the COO guide up there that might help you out on some of it.
Back to top Go down
http://alter-egos.forumotion.com/
snaggletooth
Grand Moff
Grand Moff
snaggletooth

Posts : 997
Join date : 2010-12-06
Location : North Wales

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 9:48 am

Curch, forget about you HK figures for now as there's no real way to work out where they there carded. You should work out your COO's that are the same position as the ones in the Ledy thread and then go from there to find out which ones are Ledy.

When that's done then start on the No COO's but discard 8D8, The Emperor, AT-ST Driver, B-Wing Pilot, Han Trench Coat, Leia Poncho, Pruneface, Rancor Keeper, Teebo and Wicket. They are ROTJ cards but no way of finding out where from.
The rest of the NO COO figures you have left are European and although there very complicated collectors are working these out slowly.

Back to top Go down
Chris_J
Force Addict
Force Addict
Chris_J

Posts : 4227
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 49
Location : US

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 9:52 am

Dont foget the one Chewy if you have it. The coo for the Ledy and the Euro version looks the same to me. I cant tell those 2 apart to save my life. Even if theres that one small detail that puts them apart, I cant see it.
Back to top Go down
http://alter-egos.forumotion.com/
wbobafett
Force Addict
Force Addict
wbobafett

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2009-11-20

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 11:38 am

@Chris_J wrote:
Dont foget the one Chewy if you have it. The coo for the Ledy and the Euro version looks the same to me. .

Thats because it is the same....as on 80% of all Ledys! The only unique coos to Ledy are the coos from the characters that also appeared on the MIM cards!
Back to top Go down
wbobafett
Force Addict
Force Addict
wbobafett

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2009-11-20

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 11:42 am

@snaggletooth wrote:

You are saying POCH figures only appeared on 31, 37/41a and b backs and these cards have PBP and POCH logos? Once the POCH logo disappeared so did these figures?

Yes! Wink

The Poch logo is on the front on these cards. On the back there is both logos. Poch variants are extremly rare! you win the lottery before you find one outside spain for accident.

Back to top Go down
Chris_J
Force Addict
Force Addict
Chris_J

Posts : 4227
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 49
Location : US

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 1:05 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
@Chris_J wrote:
Dont foget the one Chewy if you have it. The coo for the Ledy and the Euro version looks the same to me. .

Thats because it is the same....as on 80% of all Ledys! The only unique coos to Ledy are the coos from the characters that also appeared on the MIM cards!

Yhea, i figured that one. I should've said instead that they were the same and that there is a small detail to tell them apart, but I cant tell it. Does that make better sense? I know the detail is in the eyes or something, but I cant tell the Ledy from the Euro version by it. I had one recently that I sold as the Euro version. For all I know it was the Ledy one, but like I said, I cant tell those 2 apart for nothing.
Back to top Go down
http://alter-egos.forumotion.com/
snaggletooth
Grand Moff
Grand Moff
snaggletooth

Posts : 997
Join date : 2010-12-06
Location : North Wales

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 1:17 pm

@Chris_J wrote:
@wbobafett wrote:
@Chris_J wrote:
Dont foget the one Chewy if you have it. The coo for the Ledy and the Euro version looks the same to me. .

Thats because it is the same....as on 80% of all Ledys! The only unique coos to Ledy are the coos from the characters that also appeared on the MIM cards!

Yhea, i figured that one. I should've said instead that they were the same and that there is a small detail to tell them apart, but I cant tell it. Does that make better sense? I know the detail is in the eyes or something, but I cant tell the Ledy from the Euro version by it. I had one recently that I sold as the Euro version. For all I know it was the Ledy one, but like I said, I cant tell those 2 apart for nothing.

It was me that had the chewy of you Chris, it was the euro version that has a letter remaining on the scar. The Ledy doesn't it just has the date stamp.
Back to top Go down
snaggletooth
Grand Moff
Grand Moff
snaggletooth

Posts : 997
Join date : 2010-12-06
Location : North Wales

Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04, 2011 1:18 pm

@wbobafett wrote:
@snaggletooth wrote:

You are saying POCH figures only appeared on 31, 37/41a and b backs and these cards have PBP and POCH logos? Once the POCH logo disappeared so did these figures?

Yes! Wink

The Poch logo is on the front on these cards. On the back there is both logos. Poch variants are extremly rare! you win the lottery before you find one outside spain for accident.


Thanks for clearing that up for me mate Cool
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Understanding COOs and Variations   Understanding COOs and Variations - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 

Understanding COOs and Variations

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
The Imperial Gunnery Forum :: Vintage Star Wars Chat
-