snaggletooth wrote:

Chris_J wrote:

snaggletooth wrote:

If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.

If he can be found with the same COO position and has the same sculpt then he's made from the same mold IMO.
If he can be found with that specific COO but he's not discoloured limbs then this would be a variant.
If he can only be found with the white arms with that specific COO and Sculpt then still a variant IMO

Different batches of plastic can be used with the same mould.

We dont necessarily need to attribute each variation to a specific mould. It can be down to the type of plastic or how it is painted also. Therefore not every variation needs to have a specific COO.

olisuds wrote:

snaggletooth wrote:

Chris_J wrote:

snaggletooth wrote:

If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.

If he can be found with the same COO position and has the same sculpt then he's made from the same mold IMO.
If he can be found with that specific COO but he's not discoloured limbs then this would be a variant.
If he can only be found with the white arms with that specific COO and Sculpt then still a variant IMO

Different batches of plastic can be used with the same mould.

We dont necessarily need to attribute each variation to a specific mould. It can be down to the type of plastic or how it is painted also. Therefore not every variation needs to have a specific COO.

I realize that Olisuds, If your going to go with them boundaries on your Collection that's fine with me mate but there will be literally thousands.

Oli, I agree part way. Some factory errors are variants (wrong limbs, miscards, wrong accessories). But when it comes down to how they are made, I wouldnt classify it as a variant. It all goes back to if it was meant to leave the factory that way then yes. What types of plastic and paint used isnt considered that unless it is a factory made change to change the appearance of the figure. And your right on the second part. Just because it has the same COO, doesnt mean its that COO specific. The molds were used through the life of the figure unless the mold was so worn out they had to make a new one. And each place most likely had their own places to buy their supplies from so the quality of it couldve went either uphill or down. The only real way to find out about the plastic is to have it tested to see what the make up of it is. But then, it might not really determine anything like weighing figures might not tell much. But as for the Lobot, I wouldnt put it in the same catagory as a variant right now.

snaggletooth wrote:

olisuds wrote:

snaggletooth wrote:

Chris_J wrote:

snaggletooth wrote:

If he can be found from the same mold with the same COO position but without the degradation, then he's discoloured and not a variant, if he can't be found without the white arms then he's a Variant but still discoloured IMO.

Scott, sorry but that doesnt make a bit of sense. What you just said was he is but isnt. So how can you say hes discolored and not a variant one minute and that if hes discolored and a variant next? Like I said in my other post, you cant have both. Either its deteriation or its not. Besides, theres not enough of them coming up to determine anything really.

If he can be found with the same COO position and has the same sculpt then he's made from the same mold IMO.
If he can be found with that specific COO but he's not discoloured limbs then this would be a variant.
If he can only be found with the white arms with that specific COO and Sculpt then still a variant IMO

Different batches of plastic can be used with the same mould.

We dont necessarily need to attribute each variation to a specific mould. It can be down to the type of plastic or how it is painted also. Therefore not every variation needs to have a specific COO.

I realize that Olisuds, If your going to go with them boundaries on your Collection that's fine with me mate but there will be literally thousands.

Thats fair enough. There probably are thousands of minor variations, but we are talking about about major/significant variations? What is a major variation and what is not is another matter for debate.

Some are happy to consider Hammerhead eyes, up, down, left, right a variant. Some are happy to consider a slight difference in COO marking or position a variant. I dont consider any of these significant enough to call a variation, but thats just me and other will disagree and have their own personal idea of what a variant is.

OK how about a Red, snaggletoth red-
I have in my list a White belt and a Silver Belt buckle Var.
I think this may be transformation thru oxidation of the the paint or is it?
it seems the white buckle is rarer.
..... its gonna be a long list of transformational figures..

I think any data or research certainly should emphasize the traits of transformation..
It is interesting I am trying to think any older toys from the 70's to compare the transformation of the Plastics to
but am coming up blank.
partly because- the Kenner figure line was almost the first 3 34" line if figures with an extensive line.
there were Megos before and some Micronauts in japan.
This I guess is kind of the first time toy collectors have had to deal with this..

I would say the white from silver is deteriation (since I still dont like transformants). Yhea, the list of deteriated/discolored figures will be long. But to make it alot easier, like it was said several times already, if it didnt come from the factory that way, its not a true variant. To me, anything that wasnt planned from Kenner doesnt count. Thats why they came up with color charts on what the figures were suppose to look like when finished. These things were never meant to last this long anyway. Kids play with them, get bored and in the trash they go.

As for looking for other vintage lines, most of those were made in harder plastic (limbs, bodies and heads) than SW was. That includes Black Hole, Buck Rogers, and a few others. But if you look at the dolls Mego made for the Superhero line, some of those are turning. Thats how they got the zombie figures of them thats still in the box or on card.

As for data or research on how the figures deteriate, how would you do it? Kinda hard to do it on 30+ year old figures thats already keen to changing or already have. The thing Im doing is close to that, but all its going to do is tell you how one figure changes over a period of time. To have decent data for that, you would have to do multiples of figures to prove that point. And to me, theres no need in destroying that many figures to make a point. Then you would really need to be in a lab to do it to have accurate counts on it.

Both my Red Snaggletooth have a white belt buckle. Only my blue snaggletooth has a silver belt buckle

Hey, this might be a silly question, but is the silver paint on the red snaggletooth the same as the paint on the blue snaggletooth belt? If so and your theory of white being oxidised silver paint, then why are there no Blue Snaggletooths with white boots out there?

Neonboy wrote:

OK how about a Red, snaggletoth red-
I have in my list a White belt and a Silver Belt buckle Var.
I think this may be transformation thru oxidation of the the paint or is it?
it seems the white buckle is rarer.
..... its gonna be a long list of transformational figures..

I think any data or research certainly should emphasize the traits of transformation..
It is interesting I am trying to think any older toys from the 70's to compare the transformation of the Plastics to
but am coming up blank.
partly because- the Kenner figure line was almost the first 3 34" line if figures with an extensive line.
there were Megos before and some Micronauts in japan.
This I guess is kind of the first time toy collectors have had to deal with this..

olisuds wrote:

Hey, this might be a silly question, but is the silver paint on the red snaggletooth the same as the paint on the blue snaggletooth belt? If so and your theory of white being oxidised silver paint, then why are there no Blue Snaggletooths with white boots out there?

There are no silly questions, only silly answers.

I have never seen a red Snaggletooth wiith a silver buckle either.

I checked the bay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage&_sacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&_odkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage+silver&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I didn't see any. Maybe I missed it?

Neonboy: Can you post some pics please, would be interesting to see both variants side by side.

Isnt this one silver? Unless its just the picture the seller took or Im just seeing things in my old age. Or another thing, repainted, silver instead of white. EDIT: now that Im more awake and looked at the picture closer, it is white.

Chris_J wrote:

Isnt this one silver? Unless its just the picture the seller took or Im just seeing things in my old age. Or another thing, repainted, silver instead of white.

Honestly I couldn't tell whether this is white or silver paint which reflects. Probably you are right Chris, it is something age related.

Sure take a stab at the guy with the walker. Ill come hunt you down with my cane and make you drink my prune juice.

Dr Dengar wrote:

olisuds wrote:

Hey, this might be a silly question, but is the silver paint on the red snaggletooth the same as the paint on the blue snaggletooth belt? If so and your theory of white being oxidised silver paint, then why are there no Blue Snaggletooths with white boots out there?

There are no silly questions, only silly answers.

I have never seen a red Snaggletooth wiith a silver buckle either.

I checked the bay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage&_sacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&_odkw=red+snaggletooth+vintage+silver&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I didn't see any. Maybe I missed it?

Neonboy: Can you post some pics please, would be interesting to see both variants side by side.

alt="Photobucket">
this is not a once shot deal I have seen many..

from my guide app I am building for Ipad- Currently on my touch.
best
robert

Chris_J wrote:

Isnt this one silver? Unless its just the picture the seller took or Im just seeing things in my old age. Or another thing, repainted, silver instead of white. EDIT: now that Im more awake and looked at the picture closer, it is white.

Chris- Did Walrusman and Greedo get in a fight?? one black eye and missing head gear.. LOL

Thanks Robert!

I think there are examples of gold paint that oxidizes into brown (Bespin Guard, Leia Bespin) but I don't know of any examples of silver paint oxidizing into white. I would silver to turn into black when it oxidizes. :scratch:

So this might be a true variant IMO.

BTW: That guide app is going to look great!!!

Robert the guide app. layout is fantastic.
There does seem to be belt colour differences

HK silver, HK white, no COO light head, no COO dark head
note painted vs unpainted cuffs on the HKs- like yours? I also am unsure if there are 2 different no COOs, light vs darker grey head. ( dark grey has 'PBP smell' )



http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8262&hilit=buckle
another white vs silver discussion

Like Dr Dengar I have never heard of silver paint turning white.

Could the silver buckle be a paint opt used on figures for US distribution? as it would seem that it is common in the US while the white is rare.

I have seen a number of red snags in the UK (inc. painted & unpainted cuffs), all with white buckles. This would appear to be the case for other members from the UK/Europe. This could support the idea that the silver buckle was a US release.

Has anyone seen a Snag on a Palitoy or other European card with a silver buckle?

I am convinced the buckles on the figures I have were intentionally painted white and this colour is not a product of chemical change.

Like to add this Discolaration/Transformant figure to the
growing list.it's a 3line coo luke

second pic you can still see the degredation

It's always good to see figures in the process of change so that we have evidence for degredation as opposed to a 'true' variant.

I revised the 1st post of this thread a little bit and added some definitions which might be helpful in (future) discussions.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Look at the left prune Face below. The green paint of the legs is composed of yellow and blue pigments. The yellow pigments have degraded more over the course of time. We see two things: the green is shifted to blue (less yellow), and the colour is less intense (faded).



Now how to explain the mixed limbs Chewbacca below?

Simply. . Different pigments in the paint are expected to have a different vulnerability towards light induced and/or chemical degradation, two processes which can result in a color shift during time (here brown to green as the red pigment decays). Assuming the same light exposure during time (as is the case in the MOC), the extent to which a pigment is prone to degradation depends on the chemical structure of the pigment and the direct chemical ''environment'' which can accelerate reactions and therefore makes things worse. Think for instance about the concentration of neighboring plastifiers, or flame retardants (producing free radicals, chemically highly reactive species) within the plastic. Different batches of plastic might have slightly different compositions, and therefore the colour shift might process at different speeds.
In case you would mix up the limbs from two different batches (which might be common practice in the Kenner factories) you could end up with the mixed green/brown limbed Chewie.
Same story for other figures with different coloured limbs. Also be aware that limbs and torsos are made from different plastics and hence may discolour differently.


Yellowing

Yellowing is something else then discoloration. It is caused by chemical oxidation reactions within the plastic (not the pigments!), either spontaneously or initiated by visible/UV light or heat. And once started probably accelerated by temperature fluctuations and humidity. To make a long story short, in the end you have more molecules in the plastic which absorb blue light giving the plastic a yellow appearance. The chemical reaction can even proceed further, meaning that in the end plastics can even turn pink.

I've just reread the first page and these couple of things are confusing, both the chewy and proonface are yellowed plastic and not discolored paint.

Marco, I take it the old term of deteriated is no longer being used? Really? I think thats going to be confusing later on down the line, but thats just me, I guess. Call me old fashioned, but why fix something when its not even broke?

Chris_J wrote:

Marco, I take it the old term of deteriated is no longer being used? Really? I think thats going to be confusing later on down the line, but thats just me, I guess. Call me old fashioned, but why fix something when its not even broke?

I know you don't like the term transformant, Chris. So just don't use it.

Dr Dengar wrote:

Then we can call the rest something else. You name it: degraded figures, degradants, mutants, transformants. Personally I like the term 'transformant', I explain why:

I see no harm in using it.

I am not afraid of ebay sellers who will easily adapt the term to boost their sales. "Tan limbed Klaatu Transformant for only $45,-".
And if they do, potential buyers can at least look up what a transformant is, basically just a discolored/yellowed figure.

snaggletooth wrote:

I've just reread the first page and these couple of things are confusing, both the chewy and proonface are yellowed plastic and not discolored paint.

Where did you read that? :scratch:

If it would be yellowing, Prune Face's pants would turn yellow green instead of blue green.

I dont use it nor will I start to. But what Im getting at is when someone comes in and sees a new term like that its confusing. I mentioned it before about that. Its like when you see a duck and been calling it a duck, someone comes around and wants to start calling it a goose. Someone new comes along and thinks "Wait, I always called it a duck, so its really a goose?" Its just like these wanting to classify bootlegs a totally different way than they have been for the last 20 years. Why confuse the masses when you dont have to? If you have to use it, why not do it like you were before, deteriated/transforments.

So confused :scratch: