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 What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions

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Joseph_Y
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PostSubject: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 27, 2012 10:49 pm

OK, I'm seeing people collecting faded and repainted figures and calling them variations. I'm seeing people collecting custom figures and calling them bootlegs. Collect however you'd like but please know what exactly it is that you're collecting.

A variant is a figure that LEFT THE FACTORY with differences from the "standard" accepted example of that figure. Be it a paint variation, sculpt or mold variation, a COO variation, or just where on the leg the stamped dates and info are located. It is NOT an item that has degraded,faded, or discolored with time or exposure to different elements or climates. It is NOT an item that has been repainted by an unscrupulous collector or dealer.

A bootleg is a FACTORY PRODUCED item, that was made and intended to be used as a toy. It is NOT something made by a collector in his basement for the sake of collecting enjoyment or the sake or fooling other collectors. While for the broad spectrum, they are both unlicensed items, but for the hobby accepted definition, the differences are HUGE. Collector made, small run = custom. Factory made as a toy = bootleg. Really easy.

Now I'm not sure how hard it'll be for some of you to accept these realities. You're more than welcome to waste your money on all of faded,repainted crap all you want. Just don't expect to see it added to Wollfs variation list.

Cheers
Joe


Last edited by Joseph_Y on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 27, 2012 10:53 pm

Joe - Absolutely perfect definitions. I'm going to let people let this sink in for a bit, then make it a sticky

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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 27, 2012 11:11 pm

" Be it a paint variation, a COO variation, or just where on the leg the stamped dates and info are located " just add sculpt / mold difference & I agree. ie. short mouth Biker .......
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 27, 2012 11:22 pm

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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 6:05 am

Well put Joe Very Happy
Your definitions match what I and am sure many others have always accepted. Hopefully all members will read it, so the ongoing debates about what constitutes a variant or bootleg will end once & for all!
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 6:29 am


Joe's definition of variant totally fits with the one we came up a while ago, so I totally support it.

@Dr Dengar wrote:


Variants vs Degraded figures

Maybe we should restrict the use of the term 'variants' for factory produced figures, which already had their present appearance (paint, sculpt) when they left the factory 30 years ago (hollow tube Tusken Raider, burgundy Squid, blond and brown hair Luke Bespin, etc.).

Then we can call the rest something else. You name it: degraded figures, degradants, mutants, transformants. Personally I like the term 'transformant', I explain why:

First date chat:
She: I collect old Beatles vinyl records, and you?
He: I collect degraded figures.
She: Oh well,...that is.... very interesting.....erg.....I see it is getting late, and I have an important meeting tomorrow....

It is really up to you how you call them, as long as we both understand that we are talking figures which got their present appearance after a visual change during time (green limbed Chewie, yellowed Stormtrooper, etc.). A visual transformation caused by degradation of plastics and/or pigments.


https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t3379-everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-discolored-figures-but-were-afraid-to-ask

I like the bootleg defintition as well as it elegantly labels Mark Poon's Stromtroopers as fakes and not bootlegs (because they are not factory produced and not meant as toys).
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 6:41 am

What about these figure that come from the same factory but have slightly different molds, Luke Jedi springs to mind, date further up.

Also the ones where the mold has worn, producing a slightly different COO? Like my PBP/Palitoy Han Hoth
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 6:58 am


COO variation: deliberately produced in the factory by using a different steel mould, so true variation. If the steel moulds got worn the details on the figures might differ a bit. Still I consider that within the bandwidth of the same variant.

How about wrongly produced figures?

They are factory produced, though not deliberately, and appear in low numbers. So I would call such a figure a factory error, not a true variant.

There are probably some grey areas. The Lili Ledy removable rocket Boba Fett comes to mind.
Was this Fett meant to be produced with a loose rocket (true variant) or was it a figure where the rocket was erroneously inserted after the sonic welding (factory error)? unsure
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 7:35 am

@Dr Dengar wrote:

There are probably some grey areas. The Lili Ledy removable rocket Boba Fett comes to mind.
Was this Fett meant to be produced with a loose rocket (true variant) or was it a figure where the rocket was erroneously inserted after the sonic welding (factory error)? unsure

Yes. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 11:24 am

Yea, the RR LL Fett is a confusing one to me also. As you may or may not know, I have one with a rocket inserted incorrectly in production (the tab was pointed towards the front of the chest rather then towards his back), sonic welded and then the rocket came loose. Another was sold by "thegame" recently on Ebay. I could see the sonic weld lines on his in the same position as mine. If I am wrong about his (thegame's) I apologize but the rocket appeared to have the exact same sonic weld line). So I know, or I think, their are other ones out there. I know AFA won't grade these though. I talked to many collectors and they seemed to all agree if the rocket was inserted AFTER sonic welding it is a true RR LL Fett. And the Fett I have is just a Lili Ledy Fett that has a factory error. I have come to accept that explanation but because this error has happened more then once it interests me. Although it is an error, I was wondering if you guys consider this a very rare error? And if it makes for a great collection conversation piece in your collection. Or if it's just an error and it's not worth defending as a rare factory error????? I posted a link a bit back showcasing this fett.....
-Steve

https://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t3605-my-new-lili-ledy-removable-rocket-boba-fett?highlight=My+RR+LL+Fett
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 2:02 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:

COO variation: deliberately produced in the factory by using a different steel mould, so true variation. If the steel moulds got worn the details on the figures might differ a bit. Still I consider that within the bandwidth of the same variant.

How about wrongly produced figures?

They are factory produced, though not deliberately, and appear in low numbers. So I would call such a figure a factory error, not a true variant.

There are probably some grey areas. The Lili Ledy removable rocket Boba Fett comes to mind.
Was this Fett meant to be produced with a loose rocket (true variant) or was it a figure where the rocket was erroneously inserted after the sonic welding (factory error)? unsure

I'd agree with that but would love to see these worn COO's documented, maybe as versions of that particular Variant and think the same could be done for one of the two nearly identical molds to. Also we don't know how many of these worn COO's(if any) where deliberate for the nearly identical molds.

Wrongly produced figures, there is different types IMO and batches of these mistakes could be classed as Versions as there's a few around.

I think personally that both the RR Fett fall under this area, the one that was added after sonic welding I'd say was a batch that was welded and some one forgot to add the rocket before hand. The other was a mistake or 2 made by some one at the factory.

Another example of this is the At at Driver with no emblems, also a batch IMO as I've seen 3 now with the same COO


Last edited by snaggletooth on Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 2:17 pm

When I say both the RR Fett fall under this area I mean factory errors as I think only the first I mentioned was part of a batch of figures.
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 3:29 pm

Interesting. Thanks for your reply Snagg : ) I agree. It's too bad mine wouldn't be considered by AFA. But I suppose that's because some people have somehow torn the rocket loose from their Fetts that had the rocket inserted correctly (tab to the back) after sonic welding and then call it a RR LL Fett. I'm assuming most of those rockets are beat to shit. Mine clearly shows the sonic weld line where it should not be, with the tab pointing forward when it was sonic welded. This was a factory error just like the the regular RR LL Fetts that had rockets put in later. I just don't know how to classify mine. I know it's not a regular RR LL Fett because it had the rocket inserted and then sonic welded but it was a factory mistake just like the RR LL Fett because the rocket was inserted the wrong direction.
I would like to call it a RR (after sonic welding because of factory error) Lili Ledy Boba Fett. But then some may think I'm creating some new variant which I'm not. I already got scolded on another site explaining this Fett and was told all it is is a Lili Ledy Fett. But now that I've viewed pics of another with the same sonic weld line I don't want to just call it a LL Fett. I totally accept it is a factory error, and not it's own variant, but I do believe it should be somewhat classed in the regular RR LL Fett catigory.
Anyone with an opinion can reply. You can be totally, brutally honest with me if you don't agree with my opinion. I won't get upset or mad or be jerk or lash or act like an ass I promise!!!!! : ) I would just love to get other's opinions regarding this matter.
Thanks and I respect you guys : )
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 5:30 pm


Hi Steve, I'm not sure why AFA wont look at these Fett's, do they even grade factory errors? or maybe its because the rocket was removed, I don't think it can classed in the regular RR LL Fett category because of that reason. To me it is a factory error Ledy Fett. It must be rare though and probably more so than the RR Fett.
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 6:27 pm

"To me it is a factory error Ledy Fett".
I love that title : ) Thanks for the reply my friend. And I agree with your thoughts. It isn't a LL Fett and it isn't a RR LL Fett, it's a factory error Ledy Fett : ) Anyone else have a thought regarding this? I was even told it was a "broken" LL Fett. I didn't like that title too much because it was a factory error before the rocket came out....
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 7:07 pm

stevefdwyer wrote:
"To me it is a factory error Ledy Fett".
I love that title : ) Thanks for the reply my friend. And I agree with your thoughts. It isn't a LL Fett and it isn't a RR LL Fett, it's a factory error Ledy Fett : ) Anyone else have a thought regarding this? I was even told it was a "broken" LL Fett. I didn't like that title too much because it was a factory error before the rocket came out....
-Steve

No problem Steve and a great fig you got there mate Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 1:32 pm

@Joseph_Y wrote:
OK, I'm seeing people collecting faded and repainted figures and calling them variations. I'm seeing people collecting custom figures and calling them bootlegs. Collect however you'd like but please know what exactly it is that you're collecting.

A variant is a figure that LEFT THE FACTORY with differences from the "standard" accepted example of that figure. Be it a paint variation, sculpt or mold variation, a COO variation, or just where on the leg the stamped dates and info are located. It is NOT an item that has degraded,faded, or discolored with time or exposure to different elements or climates. It is NOT an item that has been repainted by an unscrupulous collector or dealer.

A bootleg is a FACTORY PRODUCED item, that was made and intended to be used as a toy. It is NOT something made by a collector in his basement for the sake of collecting enjoyment or the sake or fooling other collectors. While for the broad spectrum, they are both unlicensed items, but for the hobby accepted definition, the differences are HUGE. Collector made, small run = custom. Factory made as a toy = bootleg. Really easy.

Now I'm not sure how hard it'll be for some of you to accept these realities. You're more than welcome to waste your money on all of faded,repainted crap all you want. Just don't expect to see it added to Wollfs variation list.

Cheers
Joe

Very Happy .... bow
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 8:30 pm

I agree with most of what Joe said in his post.

BUT ...

Again there is little regard or respect given for those of us who collect different looking figures. As soon as you start calling anyones figures "crap", just because you have no interest, you start sounding like an opinionated elitist. Simply say discolourations wont make Wolf's variant list and stop adding fuel to the fire.

FFS !!

:silent:
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 9:01 pm

@Chopper wrote:
I agree with most of what Joe said in his post.

BUT ...

Again there is little regard or respect given for those of us who collect different looking figures. As soon as you start calling anyones figures "crap", just because you have no interest, you start sounding like an opinionated elitist. Simply say discolourations wont make Wolf's variant list and stop adding fuel to the fire.

FFS !!

:silent:

I was trying to bait Hutthunter with that assessment of faded, discolored and repainted figures actually :stir: .
To me and MANY others here, as long as they're NOT being considered or passed off as variations IE they're collected as what they are, have fun with it. And NO I'm not going to apologize on how I come across, I AM opinionated and do not tone my opinions down for anyone. As for the elitist bs...here we go again Rolling Eyes ..... Heard it a million times, will hear it a million more. Have an actual conversation with me and you'll realize that you're dead fucking wrong if that's what you get out of my posts.

Cheers
Joe
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 9:07 pm

I appreciate your honesty ! lol!

I guess I will just keep collecting crap Stormie Smiley

Looks like the wrong member took your bait !!!
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 9:07 pm

"A variant is a figure that LEFT THE FACTORY with differences from the "standard" accepted example of that figure. Be it a paint variation, sculpt or mold variation, a COO variation, or just where on the leg the stamped dates and info are located. It is NOT an item that has degraded,faded, or discolored with time or exposure to different elements or climates. It is NOT an item that has been repainted by an unscrupulous collector or dealer."

Ok, so with what is said above wouldn't that make my Ledy Fett Factory Error, with the rocket inserted incorrectly fall into that category? Because of this error the rocket came out after sonic welding. Or is this just called a factory error. The definition above confuses me because what is says means mine it is a variant also. I'm confused..... Especially since now I've seen more then one. Again, this is not one that had its rocket inserted correctly, then someone ripped the shit out of the rocket to get it out....
Thanks for further information and opinions, -Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 9:13 pm

stevefdwyer wrote:
"A variant is a figure that LEFT THE FACTORY with differences from the "standard" accepted example of that figure. Be it a paint variation, sculpt or mold variation, a COO variation, or just where on the leg the stamped dates and info are located. It is NOT an item that has degraded,faded, or discolored with time or exposure to different elements or climates. It is NOT an item that has been repainted by an unscrupulous collector or dealer."

Ok, so with what is said above wouldn't that make my Ledy Fett Factory Error, with the rocket inserted incorrectly fall into that category? Because of this error the rocket came out after sonic welding. Or is this just called a factory error. The definition above confuses me because what is says means mine it is a variant also. I'm confused..... Especially since now I've seen more then one. Again, this is not one that had its rocket inserted correctly, then someone ripped the shit out of the rocket to get it out....
Thanks for further information and opinions, -Steve

An unintentional variation like this is obviously a grey area, the condition of it has been wrecked thanks to someone tearing the rocket apart. I'll leave that one to the variation experts to discuss and give their opinions.

J
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 9:22 pm

Thanks Joe, I appreciate your opinion. Yea, this is a grey area situation. Because it is a factory error, I see more calling it that, a factory error rather then a variant, because only a couple to my knowledge have been found like this. I'm sure their have been more but who knows where they are? The only thing is aren't RR LL factory errors too and they should be classed as this, not a variant????
Again, thanks for your opinion : )
-Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 10:14 pm

AJ, Wolff ect.... Whomever has a opinion I'd love to hear. Thanks : )
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PostSubject: Re: What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions    What constitutes a variation: Simple definitions  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29, 2012 10:20 pm

To me, a factory error is just that. A Factory Error. Something that passed QC the day after the huge kegger at the Kenner company party. lol! It wasnt meant to leave the factory that way intentionally unlike factory made changes (COO, paint apps, etc.).
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