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 Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.

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Sems Fir
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 8:47 pm

I guess I was right regarding his term "content" He owns the rights to the text. The right to publish the images? Could lead to problems if he does decide to publish a work whether in paper or electronic form to generate revenue for himself. He would have to at least cite the owner of the image(s) in the work in an acknowledgement section since the individual who took the picture owns the rights to the image. Vader's words from Empire of altering the deal ring true regarding this topic.

I've had two run ins with Phil over the years. Both were back in December 2005 when Phil decided to crack down on competing Star Wars collecting websites by banning certain sites from being linked in his forums (i.e. my signature line). So many other posters were utilizing signature lines to their websites, I did the right thing and emailed Phil asking for an exception so I could put Behindthetoys as my signature line, after Dustin emailed me on 12/09/05 saying I was not
compliant with the rules. Phil gave a short reply on 12/10/05:

"Sorry Robert,

I'm not interested in more exceptions.

Regards... Philip Wise"

Which led to my second run in with Phil. I understand it's Phil's house and his rules. So many other's were still allowed to use their website signature line but not me, I was being singled out as "competition". So I emailed Dustin to take down two images of mine they did not ask for permission to use.

Just to clarify clearly the moderator darth_sidious is incorrect with his following statement:

"I've been the Mod for this section for years - and I can assure everyone that the site has never used someones work without permission, and honestly would have no reason to do so - and I wouldnt allow that to happen."

That may have been true for that section of the forums. Two images of mine were utilized without my knowledge (until I found them) or consent. One was of my Darth Maul Presentation Piece which was placed in the Rebelscum photo archives. The second image was an image of an unproduced COMMTech Memory Chip which was utilized as an April Fools' Day joke for the main page. When I told Phil to take them down I was ignored. I followed up with Dustin who wouldn't take the time to look for them and I have to tell him where they were. I still have the image saved of the Memory Chip with the RS Luke logo on it.

Now the right thing to do is ask for permission to use an image or content. Behindthetoys has images of proposed cardbacks in our archives that are from Rebelscum. I emailed Phil and asked for permission to use them, with a link to back to Rebelscum as it's the right thing and it's a courtesy factor. I still have the email authorizing the usage from Phil. If Phil email's me to take them down. Should I? Or, should I have the webmaster alter our TOS to "maintain the history" of the hobby and leave the images there? I would most likely do the right thing and remove the images. Why? For me, I believe it's the right thing to do. Same with Bill McBride's unproduced modern Vader that I researched to find out what the figure was that is shown in our archive. I asked Bill to use the image. It's Bill's image. His research, hard work, and personal money located the piece and he purchased it for his personal collection.

This is as bad as the time in 2004 when Phil purchased TheForce.net and demanded the forum moderators of the Jedi Council forums provide their real names and addresses. The links are down at this time but at Jedidefender on page 21 of the thread "Everything Rebelscum" the user DeakStarkiller paraphrased why Phil wanted the information:

"Wise demanded that TF.n Jedi Council forum moderators transmit their real names and addresses to him--basically, for two reasons-1.to be able to hold them liable in case LFL sues for spoiler postings-and 2. to make them available to their "affiliate sites" for "marketing purposes". There's hobby history.

It's Phil's house and I generally lurk and play by his rules. From time to time I put my signature back in. I have no issue with Phil. I'm just stating some personal "hobby history" so others can gain knowledge.

I've known Joe as a friend for years and spoke to him by phone recently. Cheers Joe! king

For a little humor regarding maintaining "history" it's amusing how fast a grave error to a family oriented website got fixed. Kudos to JesseVader08 for maintaining the history! Laughing Just go to the RS forums. Then go to the forum feedback and suggestions sections and search for the recent topic titled "Inappropriate Ads"

Are you looking for that special somebody!

How's that for my first post. Very Happy

Robert
edited for spelling errors
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Chris_J
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 9:00 pm

Looks like he needs a dictionary. I got an extra shovel if he needs it.

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RebelChris
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 9:17 pm

@Sems Fir wrote:
I guess I was right regarding his term "content" He owns the rights to the text. The right to publish the images? Could lead to problems if he does decide to publish a work whether in paper or electronic form to generate revenue for himself. He would have to at least cite the owner of the image(s) in the work in an acknowledgement section since the individual who took the picture owns the rights to the image. Vader's words from Empire of altering the deal ring true regarding this topic.

I've had two run ins with Phil over the years. Both were back in December 2005 when Phil decided to crack down on competing Star Wars collecting websites by banning certain sites from being linked in his forums (i.e. my signature line). So many other posters were utilizing signature lines to their websites, I did the right thing and emailed Phil asking for an exception so I could put Behindthetoys as my signature line, after Dustin emailed me on 12/09/05 saying I was not
compliant with the rules. Phil gave a short reply on 12/10/05:

"Sorry Robert,

I'm not interested in more exceptions.

Regards... Philip Wise"

Which led to my second run in with Phil. I understand it's Phil's house and his rules. So many other's were still allowed to use their website signature line but not me, I was being singled out as "competition". So I emailed Dustin to take down two images of mine they did not ask for permission to use.

Just to clarify clearly the moderator darth_sidious is incorrect with his following statement:

"I've been the Mod for this section for years - and I can assure everyone that the site has never used someones work without permission, and honestly would have no reason to do so - and I wouldnt allow that to happen."

That may have been true for that section of the forums. Two images of mine were utilized without my knowledge (until I found them) or consent. One was of my Darth Maul Presentation Piece which was placed in the Rebelscum photo archives. The second image was an image of an unproduced COMMTech Memory Chip which was utilized as an April Fools' Day joke for the main page. When I told Phil to take them down I was ignored. I followed up with Dustin who wouldn't take the time to look for them and I have to tell him where they were. I still have the image saved of the Memory Chip with the RS Luke logo on it.

Now the right thing to do is ask for permission to use an image or content. Behindthetoys has images of proposed cardbacks in our archives that are from Rebelscum. I emailed Phil and asked for permission to use them, with a link to back to Rebelscum as it's the right thing and it's a courtesy factor. I still have the email authorizing the usage from Phil. If Phil email's me to take them down. Should I? Or, should I have the webmaster alter our TOS to "maintain the history" of the hobby and leave the images there? I would most likely do the right thing and remove the images. Why? For me, I believe it's the right thing to do. Same with Bill McBride's unproduced modern Vader that I researched to find out what the figure was that is shown in our archive. I asked Bill to use the image. It's Bill's image. His research, hard work, and personal money located the piece and he purchased it for his personal collection.

This is as bad as the time in 2004 when Phil purchased TheForce.net and demanded the forum moderators of the Jedi Council forums provide their real names and addresses. The links are down at this time but at Jedidefender on page 21 of the thread "Everything Rebelscum" the user DeakStarkiller paraphrased why Phil wanted the information:

"Wise demanded that TF.n Jedi Council forum moderators transmit their real names and addresses to him--basically, for two reasons-1.to be able to hold them liable in case LFL sues for spoiler postings-and 2. to make them available to their "affiliate sites" for "marketing purposes". There's hobby history.

It's Phil's house and I generally lurk and play by his rules. From time to time I put my signature back in. I have no issue with Phil. I'm just stating some personal "hobby history" so others can gain knowledge.

I've known Joe as a friend for years and spoke to him by phone recently. Cheers Joe! king

For a little humor regarding maintaining "history" it's amusing how fast a grave error to a family oriented website got fixed. Kudos to JesseVader08 for maintaining the history! Laughing Just go to the RS forums. Then go to the forum feedback and suggestions sections and search for the recent topic titled "Inappropriate Ads"

Are you looking for that special somebody!

How's that for my first post. Very Happy

Robert
edited for spelling errors

Wow Robert! Thank you for posting that. Talk about hobby history. I wonder when this too will be swept under the rug? Heck, the "no good bye threads" sticky is already gone. This one will only remain open and active for so long as well.

It's funny we are talking about hobby history and trying to keep it in tact. However, it seems, that only applies when it helps maintain a certain "image".
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Joseph_Y
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 9:47 pm

Chris J giving Philip a good run for it....

Nice
J
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Russquatch
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 10:15 pm

yeah ... Go Chris ...


I noticed the vintage area is DEAD over there on other subjects LOL ... really if this place is alive and active like the vintage area use to be over there I have no problem with moving away from scum and making this board my new home ...

what I don't get is what the heck is phil thinking that those of us who respect Joseph_Y wouldn't have issues with his banning. I think the only reason I'm humoring RS is due to trying to get my collecting feet back... been in the hobby for years but been a few years since star wars.
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Chris_J
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 10:24 pm

Its like talking to my dog with the guy. Hes got it so flipped around that I am confused now. I couldve sworn there was a part of his response saying they wouldnt reinstate or repost a members content, but for fucks sake I cant find it now. If it wasnt there I wouldnt be talking about it. Guess that part of collecting history is lost. But honestly, the damage is done now. Theres no way RS will recover after this. And if Mike the Massive is reading this since I cant post what I want to say over there...........................................

Wipe your nose, you got shit on it.
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TishomingoSith
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:11 pm

Would it be weird if I go to Dallas-Con next year? I was going to this year, but had no idea who helped put the show on.
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:14 pm

Quote :
8. MODIFICATION AND TERMINATION OF SERVICE
The Domain reserves the right at any time and from time to time to modify or discontinue, temporarily or permanently, the Service (or any part of it) with or without notice. You agree that the Domain shall not be liable to you or to any third party for any modification, suspension or discontinuance of the Service. You agree that the Domain, in its sole discretion, may terminate your password, account (or any part of it) or ability to use the Service, and remove and discard any Content within the Service, for any reason or for no reason, including, without limitation, for lack of use, or for violating the letter or the spirit of this Agreement. You agree that any termination of your access to the Service may be immediate and without prior notice. You further agree that the Domain shall not be liable to you or any third-party for any termination of your use or ability to access the Service and that The Domain shall not be required to delete or otherwise remove accounts or Content at any time. The Domain reserves the right to take any action it deems necessary with respect to your user account and ability to use the Service.

That's pretty scary when you think about it Shocked


Quote :
17. MODIFICATION
The Domain may amend this Agreement at any time. All amendments shall automatically be effective 30 days after they are initially posted on the site. Your use of the Service following the effective date of any modifications shall constitute your binding acceptance of those modifications.

Does this mean this agreement also does not come into effect for 30 days?

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shawn_k
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:24 pm

@Josh wrote:


Quote :
17. MODIFICATION
The Domain may amend this Agreement at any time. All amendments shall automatically be effective 30 days after they are initially posted on the site. Your use of the Service following the effective date of any modifications shall constitute your binding acceptance of those modifications.

Does this mean this agreement also does not come into effect for 30 days?


Good spot! I missed that before, but this is typical in a TOS which gives users a window in which they can opt out. I've seen it used before with mobile phones and if something in the TOS changes, you can actually get out of your contract with your provider.
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:31 pm

You would think he would have to apply the same sort of thing in this case. ie If you don't like the new rules you've got thirty days to clear out your shit, but in 30 days time, and every day forward from that date, that is how it will be.

I bet he just doesn't want to say it as he knows what will happen lol!
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Tank1252
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:32 pm

@Josh wrote:

Quote :
17. MODIFICATION
The Domain may amend this Agreement at any time. All amendments shall automatically be effective 30 days after they are initially posted on the site. Your use of the Service following the effective date of any modifications shall constitute your binding acceptance of those modifications.

Does this mean this agreement also does not come into effect for 30 days?


Someone should mention this on RS.
If Phillip wants to bring in this new rule, then it's up to him i guess (i don't happen to believe it's in the best interests of the hobby going forward though - & the hobby's interest is what he cares about most as he says). I just don't see how it can be retrospective. If it is, the minimum he should allow is a grace period for members to decide what they want to do with their content.
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shawn_k
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:34 pm

I'd be willing to bet that the TOS was auto generated. He might not even know that clause is in there.
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:38 pm

I am tipping he has had it drawn up over the last week.
Him all of a sudden wanting to "discuss it" tells me he has just been waiting for whoever to knock this TOS agreement up for him. Make it as water tight for him as it can be...and it is if you read it Shocked Pretty much says 'we can do what we like, you can't do fuck all about it, we will not be held responsible for anything if you agree to these terms.'
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shawn_k
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:42 pm

@Josh wrote:
I am tipping he has had it drawn up over the last week.
Him all of a sudden wanting to "discuss it" tells me he has just been waiting for whoever to knock this TOS agreement up for him. Make it as water tight for him as it can be...and it is if you read it Shocked Pretty much says 'we can do what we like, you can't do fuck all about it, we will not be held responsible for anything if you agree to these terms.'

It's possible. Here's a generator though just to show how easy it is to get the template set up and then modify it. My guess was he was just getting it all in the right places before he posted it, so he could say it is written.
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2012 11:44 pm

lol! Fuck me, you can find anything online these days.
You're probably right Shawnie. I was probably giving him too much credit thinking he was. He probably just ddn't give a rats arse for the last week and banged it out last night Razz
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Joseph_Y
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 12:14 am

As a community, and this has nothing to do with Joe vs Phil, we all need to ask ourselves where we WANT to be in the community. A site where an overlord states "all your content belongs to us,don't like it leave",and treats posters like expendable numbers OR a place where the site owners are part of the community and are approachable, and not condescending or aloof when they reply to a question. Choice is yours guys.

Cheers
Joe
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colpar
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 2:12 am

@Sems Fir wrote:
Now the right thing to do is ask for permission to use an image or content. Behindthetoys has images of proposed cardbacks in our archives that are from Rebelscum. I emailed Phil and asked for permission to use them, with a link to back to Rebelscum as it's the right thing and it's a courtesy factor. I still have the email authorizing the usage from Phil. If Phil email's me to take them down. Should I? Or, should I have the webmaster alter our TOS to "maintain the history" of the hobby and leave the images there? I would most likely do the right thing and remove the images. Why? For me, I believe it's the right thing to do. Same with Bill McBride's unproduced modern Vader that I researched to find out what the figure was that is shown in our archive. I asked Bill to use the image. It's Bill's image. His research, hard work, and personal money located the piece and he purchased it for his personal collection.

Hi Robert,

You were lucky that day you asked for the permission to use RS pics ... i wasn't so lucky in sept.06' as i asked the very same thing with the link back and so on but was denied the right to use the pics.

Wink olivier

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Chris_J
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 2:46 am

@Joseph_Y wrote:
As a community, and this has nothing to do with Joe vs Phil, we all need to ask ourselves where we WANT to be in the community. A site where an overlord states "all your content belongs to us,don't like it leave",and treats posters like expendable numbers OR a place where the site owners are part of the community and are approachable, and not condescending or aloof when they reply to a question. Choice is yours guys.

Cheers
Joe

So theres another place to go to thats cool? lol!
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Chris_J
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 3:13 am

Just asked about the 30 day grace period. Lets see what the new new rule says about it.
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 3:30 am

You would think he would let it happen. Or would have to.

Quote :
18. GENERAL
This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between you and the Domain with respect to the Service and supersedes all prior agreements and understandings between you and the Domain. The Domain's failure to enforce any provision of this agreement will not be construed as a waiver of any provision or right. In the event that a portion of this agreement is held unenforceable, the unenforceable portion will be construed in accordance with applicable law as nearly as possible to reflect the original intentions of the parties, and the remainder of the provisions will remain in full force and effect.

If you have just wiped the slate clean you surely must have to have a cooling off period in this instance also. People can then make up their minds as to which direction they want to go. It is the fair and right thing to do. IMO anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 3:42 am

As we're speaking of picture usage ... What a Face do TIG asked for using RS pics for the FOTW Feature ? ( just to avoid further problems with all this mess ) Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 3:56 am

Quote :
20. INTEGRATION
This Agreement, including its attachments, if any, represents the entire and integrated Agreement between the User and Rebelscum.com, Inc, and supersedes all prior negotiations, representations, or agreements, either written or oral. This Agreement may be amended by updating the text, and notification in the Administration section of the Forum, and notice by email to your registered email address. Access of the forum after notice will indicate your agreement to the current Terms Of Service.

Does this mean we are going to have to actually click another "I agree to these terms" form then, to use the forums there shortly?
At the moment it seems it is just a written 'This is what is happening' sort of deal. You would think we would have to go through the same sort of process like we did when we first registered. Surely members just reading a notice can't be considered enough for him to be covered here?
I am no lawyer so I could be waaaaaaaay off.
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colpar
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 5:10 am

@Josh wrote:
Does this mean we are going to have to actually click another "I agree to these terms" form then, to use the forums there shortly?
At the moment it seems it is just a written 'This is what is happening' sort of deal. You would think we would have to go through the same sort of process like we did when we first registered. Surely members just reading a notice can't be considered enough for him to be covered here?
I am no lawyer so I could be waaaaaaaay off.

I don't think we'll have to click again , it has been said that an email would be sent to forum members.

P. Wise wrote:
The membership will be getting emails about it soon.

In belgium there's an official quote saying : "Nul n'est censé ignorer la loi" which is about : Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
There are new laws everyday so it is nearly impossible to know everything ... but nevertheless you are considered as if you know
all the laws. Seems to be identical with the new FAQ/Rules, it's up to the user to check for updates.
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Rawlin
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PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 5:13 am

@Josh wrote:
Quote :
20. INTEGRATION
This Agreement, including its attachments, if any, represents the entire and integrated Agreement between the User and Rebelscum.com, Inc, and supersedes all prior negotiations, representations, or agreements, either written or oral. This Agreement may be amended by updating the text, and notification in the Administration section of the Forum, and notice by email to your registered email address. Access of the forum after notice will indicate your agreement to the current Terms Of Service.

Does this mean we are going to have to actually click another "I agree to these terms" form then, to use the forums there shortly?
At the moment it seems it is just a written 'This is what is happening' sort of deal. You would think we would have to go through the same sort of process like we did when we first registered. Surely members just reading a notice can't be considered enough for him to be covered here?
I am no lawyer so I could be waaaaaaaay off.

You have to agree with the new terms for them to be affective, just changing them behind your back is something a child would do. They where not there 2010, sadly that's the latest backup, but if you registered then and have not accepted the new user agreements then they do not apply.
I'm no lawyer but it's a contract, and you can not alter contracts randomly. I don't think it will be counted as illegal here, but surely the new rules does not apply to anyone who registered before these new took effect.
A good example is Playstation and iPhone, they spam out new user agreements every week/update that you got to accept. If you don't you can't use the services but you got the option to not agree. I do not think such thing took place here. And I suspect they where changed recently to cover his ass.

I like that generator, might use it for my site lol.
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Rawlin
Grand Moff
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Rawlin

Posts : 993
Join date : 2011-01-17
Location : Sweden

Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27, 2012 5:47 am

@colpar wrote:
@Josh wrote:
Does this mean we are going to have to actually click another "I agree to these terms" form then, to use the forums there shortly?
At the moment it seems it is just a written 'This is what is happening' sort of deal. You would think we would have to go through the same sort of process like we did when we first registered. Surely members just reading a notice can't be considered enough for him to be covered here?
I am no lawyer so I could be waaaaaaaay off.

I don't think we'll have to click again , it has been said that an email would be sent to forum members.

P. Wise wrote:
The membership will be getting emails about it soon.

In belgium there's an official quote saying : "Nul n'est censé ignorer la loi" which is about : Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
There are new laws everyday so it is nearly impossible to know everything ... but nevertheless you are considered as if you know
all the laws. Seems to be identical with the new FAQ/Rules, it's up to the user to check for updates.

Thats the law, and I believe the only place something like that can be used. It's the same here in Sweden, and it's to stop criminals from saying that they did not know.
It also cover that you can't say you did not know that stealing pictures where illegal, and that you can't alter contracts on your own.

Id like to add that Josephs pictures can also be counted as published by Rebel Scum without Josephs permission, and that is much more serious then just keeping them on Philips own computer.
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Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion.   Any Lawyers in the house? Need a copyright opinion. - Page 9 I_icon_minitime

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