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 Vintage figure Hardcopy

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colpar
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PostSubject: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17, 2013 2:10 pm

Hello,

I was wondering what could be the average price for a vintage figure ( kenner star wars ) hardcopy ( non-painted or painted ) ? Any character , not looking for a special one.

Thanks

olivier
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17, 2013 2:29 pm

I don't know if there is a steady price. Without a doubt it's in the thousands though.

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colpar
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17, 2013 2:43 pm

hum ... my 40 years self-present might becomre my 50 years self-present :-p

thanks John ;-)
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trappedtexan
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17, 2013 9:46 pm

Steve or Oli would be the guys to ask, as they both have pre production collections going.  With no specific character in mind obviously less popular characters would be less expensive than others.  I dont know a ton of guys here but if I was going to start on preproduction items those are the guys I know who have stuff and may even have some they are willing to part with.

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AussieFortuna
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2013 2:38 am

If you want a tiny piece of the action like i did you can look around and find a hard copy head and display it on a production body, ive managed to get the odd few.
The cheapest one i got was a pink general madine hard copy head with number 2 on the back of it, from cathy at the earth, i picked it up for only $75 a few years ago with a certificate of authenticity.
I happend to see another of the same a while a go with a different number on it, the guy selling it said he had had offers of over $300 for it.

So you can get in on the action if you just focus on a small part of a hard copy, im in your situation, i couldnt fork out thousands for a full piece, but im totally happy with just a bit of head Smile

cheers
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olisuds
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19, 2013 8:02 am

Hi folks, I'm not much of an expert on hardcopies as I only own first shots and protomolds. Since they very rarely come up for sale and frequently change hands behind the scenes it is hard to say for sure. i would estimate that anywhere from $5,000 up to $15,000 depending on rarity, popularity of the figure and different unproduced sculpts. I saw a hardcopy Barada go for somewhere between $6,000 amd $7,000 earlier this year. Someone like Grant or Mattias would know better on prices of hardcopies.

AF, I think your General Madine head sounds more like a first shot head rather than a hardcopy head.
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olisuds
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19, 2013 8:25 am

Just to avoid confusion on prototype terms and so you can appreciate the importance of hardcopies in the prototype process and therefore their high cost, here is a summary of prototype stages:

Reference Photo
Design drawing
Sculpt (Wax or Acetate)
Hardcopy
Aluminium Protomold
Protomold figure
Steel production mold
Bench shot
First Shot
Carded Mock-up
Engineering Pilot
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AussieFortuna
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19, 2013 8:56 am

@olisuds wrote:
Hi folks, I'm not much of an expert on hardcopies as I only own first shots and protomolds. Since they very rarely come up for sale and frequently change hands behind the scenes it is hard to say for sure. i would estimate that anywhere from $5,000 up to $15,000 depending on rarity, popularity of the figure and different unproduced sculpts. I saw a hardcopy Barada go for somewhere between $6,000 amd $7,000 earlier this year. Someone like Grant or Mattias would know better on prices of hardcopies.

AF, I think your General Madine head sounds more like a first shot head rather than a hardcopy head.

I stand corrected, you are 100% correct.
The same piece is on Gus Lopez's site the SWCA, listed as a 'unpainted first shot' its the number 3 head on his site, mines the number 2.

cheers n thanks Olisuds
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sithtoys
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19, 2013 7:20 pm

Your pricing is absolutely going to be based on the character. As a rule of thumb; the
earlier you go back, the more expensive it's going to be. Unfortunately, HCs have not
been found for every figure, and then you also have to consider the few unproduced
pieces.
In terms of pricing, I would recommend setting a budget and going from there. You could
easily spend anywhere from $5k to $30k (and higher) depending on the character.

Bill
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olisuds
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20, 2013 7:03 am

Bill, Like you say, for some figures no hardcopy prototypes exist. However for some figures even though hardcopies exist they are either tied up in collections or exchange hands privately between collecting buddies or in trades. Hardcopy prototypes very rarely exchange hands on the open market. So sometimes regardless of how much money you might have, getting an opportunity to purchase a hardcopy is another thing. I recently heard of a hardcopy for a very desirable figure being sold for between $4k-$5k when i would expect it to have sold for twice that on the open market. So yes it's sometimes a question of who you know and having the right contacts but on the flip side it's nice to know that its not all about the money for a lot of prototype collectors but trying to help a buddy.

I would imagine for a lot of collectors that if you're going to be picky about what hardcopy you are after, you should be prepared to be disappointed.
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The_Dark_Artist
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20, 2013 10:52 am

If you find a hard copy Kenner Vader, it's worth 100 million dollars!
Steve  : )
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sithtoys
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20, 2013 7:57 pm

It would be worth eleventy-billion Steve Wink  The only comp that I could offer is the recent
15" vintage HC that sold for $18k. That is relatively cheap considering there are 5 known
to exist, and all the heavy hitters in VaderLand already have one, so there wasn't much
competition. To the best of my knowledge, the only complete vintage Vader HC is my
TopToys example, and I've turned down several very strong offers over the years.

When you get into these one of a kind pieces (and as Oli' alluded to), money is a secondary
factor; it all comes down to the seller and whatever motivation he/she has to sell. I know of
some truly amazing pieces locked up in dark hole collections that have been offered *insane*
amounts of money, and they don't bat an eye turning it down. So yes, timing and money are
playing a huge part in this. On the other hand, I can't see anyone moving a high profile HC on
the cheap.

As I mentioned before, when you are looking at this type of item - the character is going to be
the #1 factor involved. Some are more desirable, and others are more rare. In special cases,
you have both factors to consider - a highly desirable character, that also happens to be
exceptionally rare. (Vader and Fett *excluding the RFs* are the best examples). Like I said, it's best to come up witha budget, and see what you could possibly get in your price range. (even then, it's still a crap shoot so good luck !!)

Bill
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aussiejames
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20, 2013 8:10 pm

Be wary of "McWilliams' HCs"

...fake hardcopy prototypes and possibly wax sculptings .... These include both painted and unpainted hardcopies in materials visually similar to carbalon, dynacast and other less common vintage materials, but all purported to be authentic from legitimate Kenner sources .... be aware to be careful when buying hardcopy prototypes.

Some of the physical evidence which has been gathered thus far is outlined below:

1. Some “Hardcopies” with parting lines which match those on production figures and which sometimes mimic production flaws.

2. Some “Hardcopies” which are not sized correctly or have limbs which are not sized proportionately to the torsos.

3. Some “Hardcopies” have muddy or fuzzy details that are otherwise crisp and precise on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

4. Some “Hardcopies” have specific details that are cast incorrectly that do not match the same details on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

5. Some “Hardcopies” appear to have been made using poor casting practices which yield numerous surface flaws quite unlike known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

6. Some “Hardcopies” show evidence of filled foot peg holes.

7. Some “Hardcopies” show evidence of sanded off copyright dates and lettering.

8. Some “Hardcopies” have poor placement and alignment of pins between the torso and limbs which is inconsistent with known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

9. Some “Hardcopies” appear to have been cast with materials that are unlike known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies. This is most apparent on internal material features visible inside peg holes or when looking at broken parts.

10. Some “Hardcopies” are cast in material colors that don't quite match dynacast or carbalon of known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

11. Some painted “Hardcopies” with poor quality paint jobs that do not match the detail and fineness of known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

12. Some painted “Hardcopies” with a different type of paint which is too glossy when compared to known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies.

13. Some painted “Hardcopies” with numerous air bubbles and globs of material which is inconsistent with the Kenner practice of painting only very good castings.

14. The majority of these painted “Hardcopies” show very little to no signs of age or scratching which is almost always apparent on known authentic vintage Kenner Hardcopies from 25-33 years ago.

While the above is a generic description of flaws seen across many fake “Hardcopies”, examples discovered so far range in quality from being quite different from known original examples and easy to spot to being of very high quality and difficult to spot.
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The_Dark_Artist
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20, 2013 9:47 pm

Aussie James always watching out for the community... Good stuff AJ! I agree, because of the fakes and past scams, it REALLY should make a collector that is interested in these type of rare figures, educate themselves first, before purchasing anything. Making trusting friendships can be just as awesome as finding that hardcopy. The last thing any of the guys that posted on your thread would be that you get taken for a fake HC "eleventy-billion" dollar fake...
Steve
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sithtoys
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21, 2013 2:10 pm

Needless to say, the McWilliams debacle is wholly unique in the history of the hobby. Unfortunately,
if you are looking at any later ESB or ROTJ characters, you are going to have to be wary. The absolute
best advice I could give anyone, is to simply check out real examples and learn the details and get a
"feel" for what a real HC looks like. To be blunt - every one of the SMC pieces looked like junk compared
to known examples. (I know that's a stretch, not many of these are floating around in the wild, but going
to another collector who owns one/some and asking for pics is a great help)

A lot of this is simply rhetorical really - while there are a few HCs locked up in black hole collections, the
majority of them are already known, or have been well documented by collectors. (ie, not a whole lot of
surprises) As I mentioned before, you need to set a budget and go from there. In some cases, you might
have to be satisfied with a part/limb, etc. Unless of course you have that elevenety billiooon dollars, and
beg someone out of a piece ;)LOL

Good luck !! 
Bill
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Johnpaul Ragusa
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PostSubject: Re: Vintage figure Hardcopy   Vintage figure Hardcopy I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21, 2013 5:31 pm

@sithtoys wrote:
Unless of course you have that elevenety billiooon dollars

Well.........


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P.S. I'm glad you didn't get your toy - Baytrooper
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