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  The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.

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Josh
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. Empty
PostSubject: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 5:15 pm

Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa - StarWarsForumUK

Shocked

I made a timeline made up from this post: Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa - StarWarsForumUK

Other threads on this subject:

The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" debate - RebelScum
Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam - StarWarsForumUK
Mr Palitoy's cardback Guide


Let me know if I have missed anything.

JJ = Jason joiner TT = Toy Toni

Dec 3rd 2013
* JJ is invited onto the forum (SWFUK) by Maulster (Grant) to discuss his (JJ) Palitoy VC jawa and other things.

Dec 5th 2013 The day it all went pear shaped.

*JJ during a post about back in the day lets slip that there was a huge quantity, 25,000 total, of unused card backs and blisters that ended up in Toni's Hands. These were dealt through a chap named Arthur.

*MR Palitoy (Jason) picks up on this and I am sure others did, and the **** storm starts from here.

*Two other collectors either confirm the card back story (To a degree), or give an account of hearing about TT buying up loose figures being passed around the grapevine.

*TT comes on and gives an account of what happened. Says he hasn't really had much to do with Arthur, says he bought a few bits off him, no card backs, and puts it down to a fabrication by JJ. It calms things down a little and the shift turns back onto JJ for a while.

*Lots of speculation about the heat sealing process ensues. And bubble checking begins.

*Chris Caswellbot gives an account of a discussion with Jim Stevenson to clarify earlier what he had wrote. Again he confirms Jim recalls TT buying a load of stuff including unused card backs (no mention of bubbles)

*Speculation about what is going on with the card backs from Germany is starting to gather speed.

*More talk of the heat sealing process being to difficult according to 'Experts' in the field.

* Mr Shifter discovers Arthur and Toni were partners. Toni's explanation is it was an internet company Arthur wanted help with starting up. All TT said he did was set it up as Arthur wasn't that switched on in that regard.

*Most people who were leaning towards Jason being full of s--- start heading towards the other side of the fence.

*Wolf is starting to realise anomalies he has spotted in the past with his COO guide are starting to make sense if random figures had been carded onto unused card backs.

* James Simmonds gives an account of hearing Jason talking to one of his workers at a con saying the Fetts he has for sale are being made up for sale. He takes this as JJ is making these Fett's

*Palitoy ROTJ Fett's go under the microscope

Dec 11th 2013

*A second eBay account for TT is revealed by Joe O. It is buying up minty and "u" graded figures in quantity that happened to match his sales list for carded figures or strikingly close.

*Rangers Jedi says he has sold loads of loose figures to the second account belonging to tony. He particularly liked Yoda.

*TT asked to explain by Mr Palitoy via email...no response or flippant reply.

*TT hides eBAy account from view. And at this point it is also revealed the account has had it's name changed 30 times over the years.



Dec 15th 2013 It all happens pretty quick from now on...

*Mattias mentions something he has felt was not quite right with the examples he had from Toy Toni stock. Errors with the cards to do with the printing. Unused card backs and MOC appear to have the same print error but don't don't seem to match wild caught MOC examples of the same figure (c3PO)

*JJ meets with collectors  @ FF4. He brings with him 17 MOC figures and it is shown how some of these cards have been sealed. The use of a household iron and spray on glue in some cases.

*TT remains quiet at this stage

*Collectors are furiously trying to work out effected pieces.

*TT replies to Jason via email which once again lacks any serious defence of the allegations that have been presented.


Jason Smith 
This is the list of affected cards:-


 Clipper ESB

72* Rebel Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
69+ Hammerhead
56+ Walrusman
11+ Dengar

General Mills ESB

563 Han Hoth (without english text)
526 Stormtrooper (without english text)
500* Bossk (without english text)
357 C3PO Removable Limbs (without english text)
320 AT-AT Driver (with english text)
318 Bespin Security Guard Black (with english text)
276 IG88 (without english text)
268 21B (with english text)
194 Han Solo (without english text)
171 R2D2 Sensorscope (without english text)
166 Leia Bespin (with english text)
162 Han Bespin (without english text)
138 Ben Kenobi (without english text)
118 Power Droid (with english text)
90 Cloud Car Pilot (with english text)
85 Yoda (without english text)
73* Rebel Commander (with english text)
70 AT-AT Commander (with english text)
69* Bespin Security Guard White (without english text)
66* Chewbacca (with english text)
50 Leia Hoth (with english text)
36 Rebel Soldier (with english text)
26 FX-7 (with english text)
25 Princess Leia (without english text)
11 R5D4 (with english text)

General Mills ROTJ

30 Cloud Car Pilot
6^ Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot

Palitoy ESB

500* Bossk (45b back)
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot (45b back)
66* Chewbacca (45b back)

Palitoy ROTJ

1234 C3PO Removable Limbs (65d back)
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper (65d back)
885 Luke Skywalker (45c back)
482 Boba Fett (45c back)
467 Lobot (45c back)
417 Death Star Droid (45c back)
301 21B (45c back)
143 Chewbacca (65d back)
132 Luke Bespin (45c back)
105 Luke Hoth (65d back)
86 Lando Skiff Guard (65c back)
81 Logray 65c back)
60 Squid Head (65c back)
47 Han Solo (45c back)
39 AT-AT Driver (65d back)
31 Gamorrean Guard (65c back)
30 Leia Boussh (65c back)
27 AT-AT Commander (45c back)
12 Yoda (45c back)
8 Cloud Car Pilot (45c back)

*Both palitoy & clipper or german & clipper offered on toytoni.com, so a 50/50 split assumed rather than assuming all are german
+Clipper not listed, but offered on toytoni.com, no german figure offered
^Palitoy variation not known to exist, assumed to be german which does exist


Last edited by aussiejames on Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:15 am; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : added more links)
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chris.75
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 5:43 pm

yep, just posted a link in the gif friday thread in response to a question from Alex. Its some crazy shit Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:10 pm

I am a bit blown away. Jim Stevenson appears to have told the same thing to Chris.Caswelbot some time ago. :/
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:11 pm

Not to mention it didn't seem like it was a big deal to Jason when he mentioned it originally. His words he thought it was common knowledge. I think people seem to forget back then the collecting circle would of been smaller also. So it is no surprise stuff that happened back in the day still hasn't come to light yet. Unless you are getting the story from the horses mouth, and not second and third hand info passed down from collector collector. You are never going to get to the truth of it.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:19 pm

A few people have mentioned they had heard similar also in the past also. Now if it all originated from Jason to begin with, then I think you could assume something maybe up. But if it has come from different sources independently of each other then where are we at?
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:23 pm

its all a bit odd, the guy just turns up out of the blue a couple of days ago, drops this bombshell and tries to ruin a guys reputation, now it looks like he's gonna bail and leave everybody kind of scratching their head's saying what the fu#@k just happened unsure its all second hand, third hand hearsay though, at the moment its really only one guys word against another, until these other guys that were around at the time actually come forward.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:26 pm

You got it. The people who have said "I heard this back in the day" need to come up with their sources. And those sources will have to say where they heard /got it from.
Jim Stevenson is a BIG and RESPECTED name in UK star Wars though. BIG NAME. Why would he make it up also? Unless he heard from Joiner to begin with, something only Jim could say obviously.
Like Jason was saying back then it didn't seem like a BIG deal if someone was doing that kind of thing. Nowadays it is obviously looked upon differently giving the values associated with the pieces. This is something people are over looking.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:33 pm

I don't know either of them personally. Have heard of them both obviously over the years. But just imagine if it did go down like this. No one cared back then, enough so for it to be basically forgotten to time. I am sure a lot of people probably would of thought it was a solid idea if they had heard about it Smile Now these figures are worth BIG dollars it's different. It is not the sort of thing you are going to want to come out of the woodwork now. I am sure people would of liked to know what they were buying. Made up pieces, if in fact this is true.

I am honestly hoping it is not true. I don't want it to be true. I am sure a lot of people would be hurting if it was. Toni included obviously.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:37 pm

He didn't just turn up out of the blue either. He had been contacted by Jason Smith I thought to come in and discuss the Jawa the thread is actually about Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:42 pm

absolutely, the price for a moc back then was what £15-£20 and the market wasn't as big back then, far fewer collectors and no forums where everybody could voice their opinions on the subject If any of this really happened, they probably felt like they were doing nothing wrong. The thing is we still haven't heard from Jim Stevenson in person yet, so again its still hearsay and second hand information. But that thread was over a year old when he decided to post on it the other day wasn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 6:51 pm

It was. But it was talking about his Jawa. I maybe wrong about Jason inviting him onto the forum. I saw a post saying they were friends on FB. Given the recent Palitoy Jawa rumblings it would not surprise me at all if they had been corresponding. Again. Speculation on my part Razz




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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:00 pm

yeah i know it was his Palitoy VCJ they were talking about, but why leave it until a year later to comment on the thread, it just seemed a bit out of the blue to me. But your probably right, due to the recent vectis auction they were probably corresponding again.

Its an interesting debate though as to whether or not they are deemed as fakes when all the parts are original except the factory seal. Is it a re-seal, re-card? If the AFA could not tell the difference, does it matter?
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:01 pm

I am pretty sure Jim Stevenson is a member on there. Hopefully he will chime in somewhere along the line.
Maybe good old Arthur will show up lol! Wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events. Would have some good stories to tell old Arthur me thinks Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:05 pm

he he yeah absolutely, in hindsight, those must have been amazing times, with all that excess factory clearance stock floating around. Passing hands for next to nothing compared to today's prices. And what other shady deals were made? Lets hope some of them do chime in Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:06 pm

I don't think there is an issue selling them if they turn out to be made up pieces. There is just the issue of not disclosing what they actually are. If that is what they are Razz. If they have been heat sealed properly, I am not sure how the AFA are meant to distinguish one that has been done in the 80's and one that is done in the 90's :/
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:16 pm

that's it, if people know what they are buying then they don't have a problem with it or they pas on it. Of course you cant charge as much for a re-seal no matter how good it is. In fact if Tony does have thousands of original cardbacks then surely they are worth more as a type of proof or unused/overstock than as a re-sealed moc. Unless of course you decide to pass them off as original factory sealed mocs.
If this does turn out to be true, then AFA will have to up their game study


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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:23 pm

You make a good point. I could see people paying more for an unused one also. Nowadays anyway. Back in the day probably not.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:27 pm

yeah back then i guess they wouldn't have been worth much to collectors. But Like they discussed on SWFUK would it be economically viable to go about buying up large amounts of mint loose figures and building some kind of sealing press just to knock out a moc for £20?
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Well if you are talking 25,000 figures at £20 each = £500,000...I think someone out there would feel motivated. Maybe Arthur sourced the parts needed Razz

now if even only 10,000 exist at today's rates. say to be fair @ an average of £125 per MOC. That is = £1.25million

£10,000 outlay doesn't seem that much anymore now does it?

I am not trying to take Toni down here either. Just showing how it COULD be VERY worthwhile.


*I hope I got those numbers right. I thought it was 25,000 unused cardbacks and blisters etc.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:34 pm

£500,000 back then was a LOT of money also.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:39 pm

lol! yeah i guess so. That kinda coin would be pretty motivating wouldn't it. Of course it would be a bit of a slow burner cos you'd want to trickle them out so as not to flood the market all at once, which would devalue their worth.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:45 pm

And at the time it would not of been frowned upon. Just a good way to make a buck out of some old toy stock.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:46 pm

It's the same as taking figures of beater and even mint moc's back in the day. Didn't bother anybody really. When dealers/AFA?whoever thought U grading was a good idea to move beater stock they copped the back lash from a whole different generation of collectors. Seemed like a good idea at the time though :p
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 7:55 pm

yeah hindsight is a wonderful thing aint it, I wonder what collectors will make of the hobby in another 20 years and what heinous mistakes will we have made in their eyes Laughing 
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2013 8:54 pm

Yep, saw this the other day, very interesting stuff, i have no horse in the race, but i have to be honest, i find the testimony of JJ regarding meeting and talking to the other party regarding the issue very compelling,  theres just too much detail in it, included are locations, first hand conversations, he knows all the players, i just dont think you could make that stuff up, or is it just sour grapes and the talk of a mad man?
He's testimony is very detailed imo, even if his past is apparently a bit shady.

I also think it would be easier to obtain a device that seals these than many think, you could have one made by a metal fabricator in a backyard shed, or get your hands on a used one, people who have passion to do something can be very ingenious.

I think most people that own these items will not want to entertain or believe the accusations, they have a vested interest, and would dread to find out their stuff had been resealed.

But having said that, its all opinion at this stage, theres no proof, doubt there ever will be, so its innocent until proven guilty, but theres some very compelling stuff, with some very detailed accusations.

A very interesting thread that throws some serious questions up.popcorn

I dont think anybody will ever get to the bottom of it, and if its not true, it can really hurt a guys reputation, so innocent till proven guilty.
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