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  The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.

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yeah-sus
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14, 2014 1:18 pm

@chipsteak wrote:
Is it thought that the characters written on that list are the only alleged Toni reseals?

The reason I ask is that I have a Pali 65-back Bib Fortuna that I've often thought to be too good to be true, yet he's not on that list. It has the inked-out offer date on the back.

I can't find any tell-tale iron marks though.
Well it seems there are some pages missing on the list from jj
But i think and hope the blackened out offer date is a sign of real mocs
I have a han solo with a bespin blaster on a 65-back and its look to messed up for being a tt
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Grant_C
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14, 2014 2:16 pm

I would LOVE, fucking LOVE to get these dealers etc, to come forward.

Trust me, its not for lack of trying or coaxing through visits, emails and phone calls.

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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14, 2014 6:08 pm

I just find it a little odd they don't want to put their name to anything in public. Talking through other people is BS I am afraid. This is a big deal. It's about time some of these dealers actually did something for the hobby instead of just getting rich off it.
The difference between the American big big collectors/dealers and the UK ones is they actually seem to contribute to the hobby. Seem to care about it. I don't think I have ever seen the same level of dedication to the hobby beyond it just being a money making machine to the UK guys.
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Josh
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14, 2014 6:11 pm

Actually. I am wrong. Turns out, the most "shadiest one of them all..JJ" is actually the most willing to lay cards on the table and appears to be the most dedicated. Speaks volumes if you ask me.
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14, 2014 6:15 pm

Their lack of willingness to openly communicate with everyone is almost as alarming as Toni's lack of willingness to try an explain this mess. Surely people can see that there is something seriously wrong here with this scenario.
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aussiejames
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 3:51 am

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Sdc13124
 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Sdc13123
 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Sdc13122
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Grant_C
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 7:22 am

Its not from a lack of trying.

I am also bewildered by the lack of enthusiasm to put a nail in the coffin of this issue.

I have heard rumours that collectors are putting together a case against toni, and im guessing that maybe this is being done away from the online community.
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Grant_C
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 7:29 am

@aussiejames wrote:
 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Sdc13124
 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Sdc13123
 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Sdc13122

This looks like the spray glue type seal- if this is indicative of toni's seals, then the majority of the 45bs are ok- contrary to the list.

But I can't tell the difference between shop bought palitoy seals and toni, that I have.

The list is missing pages. I believe that these missing pages may contain enormous numbers of sealed factory MOCs. 2 dealers that were offered this deal from Bailey confirmed that there was boxes full of sealed MOCs, including 1000+ Fetts.

Could it be possible that the majority of MOCs from Toni are fine and the ones like the Bossk above and the ironed ones are not?

Perhaps the factory seal cannot be reproduced exactly- therefore, the majority of MOCs so far are fine.

Just food for thought.
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 7:33 am

@AJ: The card looks damaged below the seal?!?!? See the bottom of the card....looks definatley fake to me???
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 7:56 am

My last attemp to contribute sth here I guess Laughing

I have notice on all these MOC pictures shown that all original cardbacks have two signs from the heat sealing process and machine:

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 German22

Check out more cardbacks here:
https://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/German%20ESB%20Cardbacks?sort=9&page=1

The question would be now:

CAN ONE OR BOTH OF THESE SIGNS BE SEEN ON SEALED ORIGINALS???

I think I have seen them on some of Fernandos but its hard not having them in hands I guess!

Maybe the white inne line is the key!??!?! On original seals it looks like a imprint from the heat sealing machine/form. Between the line and the seal there is often some space..like lifting a bit...
This white line can be maybe seen on MOCs???

Anyone??

Just an idea though.....

Wolff
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aussiejames
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 7:58 am

Ooops forgot to add text to the pictures.  It is not a legit seal.  The bubble is ready to fall off hence the damage to the bottom litho.  I thought the width ( too wide ) was a tell tale sign but there are different width legit double stem bubbles?? (edit: yes: http://theswca.com/images-speci/Tri_bubbles/trilogo_swca.html )

"The list is missing pages. I believe that these missing pages may contain enormous numbers of sealed factory MOCs. 2 dealers that were offered this deal from Bailey confirmed that there was boxes full of sealed MOCs, including 1000+ Fetts.

Could it be possible that the majority of MOCs from Toni are fine and the ones like the Bossk above and the ironed ones are not? "  exactly, half of the '25000' items are not listed.

What is JJ's explanation for the missing pages?


Last edited by aussiejames on Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Grant_C
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 8:21 am

He said in a phone call I had with him 2 days ago that there are missing pages and that they were probably taken out and used to help with pricing up other deals.

He has stated before that he doesn't throw out anything, and has promised that he would look for the rest of the papers.

Imagine if that other paper says:

Carded ROTJ Hoth stormtrooper 1500
Carded ROTJ BOba Fett 1300
Carded ROTJ C-3PO Limbs 955........etc,

Could be that these are legit.

Problem is the buying of loose mint figures and multiple ebay accounts and his silence.

But are we sure that the sealing process has been perfected or are the only ones attempted the obvious spray glue- ironed on efforts.
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psybertech
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 8:24 am

Wollf,

The secondary line sounds intriguing.
Here is a pic (very large - view original size in flickr) of a single stem that shows it.

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 GM%2045%20Leia%20Bespin%20Front


Unfortunately my double stem is in a sealed AFA case which, for now, I won't open. I can't see the lines in it but since I can't try to gently move the stem pieces or really get a good angle to check so I can't confirm anything in hand or by pics. Sad

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Moc_general_mills%20(2)

cheers!
Very Happy
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chipsteak
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 10:38 am

@yeah-sus wrote:
@chipsteak wrote:
Is it thought that the characters written on that list are the only alleged Toni reseals?

The reason I ask is that I have a Pali 65-back Bib Fortuna that I've often thought to be too good to be true, yet he's not on that list. It has the inked-out offer date on the back.

I can't find any tell-tale iron marks though.
Well it seems there are some pages missing on the list from jj
But i think and hope the blackened out offer date is a sign of real mocs
I have a han solo with a bespin blaster on a 65-back and its look to messed up for being a tt

Thanks yeah-sus.
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wbobafett
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15, 2014 10:53 am

The white line can be seen! It was confirmed on SWFUK! So get your non Afa graded and check please:

geoffbroccoli wrote:
Yes, the white line/colour lifting inside the bubble edge is evident on 3 of my childhood original sealed palitoys, and not on my later purchase suspect ones...
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aussiejames
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11, 2014 9:02 am

Well this scandal does effect all collectors. Had a look at a large MOC collection last night- sure enough two Toytoni's:
Lobot & Death Star Droid AFA90s
Rectangular bubbles with square corners and rounded corners on the back plate...
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm
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aussiejames
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 14, 2014 5:17 pm

For Toy Tonis unused cardbacks, I have better categorised the palitoy list and have also figured out which of the two card types the german cards were by looking on toytoni.com on the wayback archive and using the v punch (with english text) or rounded punch (without text) tell with front only pictures of the cards.
Of the 24 affected ESB German cards, 12 are with english text, and 12 are without english text, so a 50/50 split. So there is no correspondence with Tonis cards being all with english text as I first thought.
Clipper ESB
72* Rebel Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
69+ Hammerhead
56+ Walrusman
11+ Dengar
General Mills ESB
563 Han Hoth (without english text)
526 Stormtrooper (without english text)
500* Bossk (without english text)
357 C3PO Removable Limbs (without english text)
320 AT-AT Driver (with english text)
318 Bespin Security Guard Black (with english text)
276 IG88 (without english text)
268 21B (with english text)
194 Han Solo (without english text)
171 R2D2 Sensorscope (without english text)
166 Leia Bespin (with english text)
162 Han Bespin (without english text)
138 Ben Kenobi (without english text)
118 Power Droid (with english text)
90 Cloud Car Pilot (with english text)
85 Yoda (without english text)
73* Rebel Commander (with english text)
70 AT-AT Commander (with english text)
69* Bespin Security Guard White (without english text)
66* Chewbacca (with english text)
50 Leia Hoth (with english text)
36 Rebel Soldier (with english text)
26 FX-7 (with english text)
25 Princess Leia (without english text)
11 R5D4 (with english text)
General Mills ROTJ
30 Cloud Car Pilot
6^ Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
Palitoy ESB
500* Bossk (45b back)
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot (45b back)
66* Chewbacca (45b back)
Palitoy ROTJ
1234 C3PO Removable Limbs (65d back)
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper (65d back)
885 Luke Skywalker (45c back)
482 Boba Fett (45c back)
467 Lobot (45c back)
417 Death Star Droid (45c back)
301 21B (45c back)
143 Chewbacca (65d back)
132 Luke Bespin (45c back)
105 Luke Hoth (65d back)
86 Lando Skiff Guard (65c back)
81 Logray 65c back)
60 Squid Head (65c back)
47 Han Solo (45c back)
39 AT-AT Driver (65d back)
31 Gamorrean Guard (65c back)
30 Leia Boussh (65c back)
27 AT-AT Commander (45c back)
12 Yoda (45c back)
8 Cloud Car Pilot (45c back)
*Both palitoy & clipper or german & clipper offered on toytoni.com, so a 50/50 split assumed rather than assuming all are german
+Clipper not listed, but offered on toytoni.com, no german figure offered
^Palitoy variation not known to exist, assumed to be german which does exist
cheers Jason
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chipsteak
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 14, 2014 10:16 pm

I strongly suspect I have a Palitoy Bib Fortuna which is the work of Toni.

Is it worth me uploading pics for the experts to add it to the known list, or are we avoiding that for fear of getting deluged by pictures of every ROTJ Pali?
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15, 2014 12:34 am

It's a discussion thread- if you're not sure put a picture(s) up.
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mr_palitoy
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15, 2014 4:37 am

@chipsteak wrote:
I strongly suspect I have a Palitoy Bib Fortuna which is the work of Toni.

Is it worth me uploading pics for the experts to add it to the known list, or are we avoiding that for fear of getting deluged by pictures of every ROTJ Pali?

Put the pics up, but bib fortuna debuted on a trilogo card, and we are pretty sure Toni didnt fake trilogo cards.

 Smile 

Jason
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chipsteak
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15, 2014 12:49 pm

Mr Fortuna was a ROTJ 65 back. Smile

Here's the pics. Why i am suspicious is the front seal has no signs of waffle - its very smooth. And the back has some scoring that I've been reading about on threads like this one.

Additional detail is that it is unpunched but otherwise very mint. The offer date is blacked out with a marker pen too, for what that's worth.

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Front10

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Back11
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15, 2014 2:35 pm

@chipsteak wrote:
Mr Fortuna was a ROTJ 65 back. Smile

Here's the pics. Why i am suspicious is the front seal has no signs of waffle - its very smooth. And the back has some scoring that I've been reading about on threads like this one.

Additional detail is that it is unpunched but otherwise very mint. The offer date is blacked out with a marker pen too, for what that's worth.

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Front10

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 Back11

My bad, got my nien nunb and bib fortuna mixed up!

Of course bib fortuna was on 65a, 65b, and 65c. Yours is a 65c, and Toni had 65c cards for other figures, but not Bib Fortuna.

More usually seen with this bubble:-

 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 4463_l

But can also be seen with the bubble you have:-

http://www.popscreen.com/p/MTA5MDM3MjA5/Palitoy-ROTJ-Bib-Fortuna-Figure-MOC-1983-Star-Wars-eBay

Not sure what those marks are on the back, could be scrapes rather than iron marks. Would make no sense for the card
to be ironed on the back anyway.

So all in, I think you're good.

 Smile 

cheers Jason

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chipsteak
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15, 2014 3:48 pm

Thanks for that, Mr Palitoy.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 17, 2014 12:28 pm

thanks for the list, aussiejames. I don't know whether much more can be said about the subject, thoug. Done is done, and eventual buyers are beware, so... Sad 
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 17, 2014 12:31 pm

@lfantelo wrote:
thanks for the list, aussiejames. I don't know whether much more can be said about the subject, thoug. Done is done, and eventual buyers are beware, so... Sad 

That was my list reposted from rebelscum/swfuk.

Anything that helps narrow the field and better identify Tonis is good for everyone, as these pieces will be around for a long time to come.

Jason
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