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  The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.

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Richard_H
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 2:40 am

I've been banging on about getting specific details on JJs past whereby someone has been directly affected by him. Nothing has turned up yet. Not saying it doesn't exist but it seems a lot is hearsay.
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 5:59 am

...the problem is: it actually would solve so many riddles.....as I wrote years ago:

....
2.Case: PBP Bossk
This is also a very rare variant. Just like the PBP Biker mentioned above, it can be found loose in Spain but not a single PBP carded one has been found. On the other hand this variant was found on British (Palitoy ESB 45back, single stem blister) and German (General Mills ESB 45back, single stem blister) cards whilst only one loose example was found in England (as far as I am aware). So the real origin of this figures stays an unsolved mystery. The carded examples seem to be found in completely different locations to the loose ones and completely mess with the theory.

To me it will always be a big riddle and we may never know everything about these figures. ....


...taken from the introduction acrticle about Coos:
http://swspaceclub.com/wbobafett/introduction-coos/

There would be waaay more examples.....and I am really afraid now to ask the people owning one looking for the english text :/

No matter what: You can find very odd figures on some of those...figure variants that should normally have been produced waaay later, not even close to ESB. Thats why I personally always assumed that "overstock figures" (i.e. from Spain) were packed on overstock cards (Palitoy ESB 45back) near the end of producing SW toys......

This is not new. I repeat: I actually wrote this down several times....years ago......and now my own thoughts actually "would" make sense...in one way or the other!  

I repeat: I am not saying Toni did what others claim, I am only saying: I always wondered about some of them....they could be very late produced from overstock parts....in factory or at someones home.....
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AussieFortuna
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 6:07 am

Ive done a bit of research into JJ just out of interest, and apart from having the odd fake go through his hands, it doesnt seem like hes done much wrong at all.
The prop business is full of fakes, the guy was in the Guinness book of records for having the biggest collection in the world before SS, he has moved a massive amount of SW stuff, and a guy like Gary Kurtz (is that how you spell it) trusts him enough to have a warehouse with him, i think his bad rep is overstated, and its very clear he is not a dope when it comes to SW.
The silence is defening from TT, why would JJ say he spoke to him and TT admitted to him at a fair eye to eye what the story was, who would make that up?
Now it comes to light that TT ran a company with this Arthur bloke, after he earlier said he hardly knew him, i dont know either of them, but from an outsider looking in in believe that JJ believes what he is saying, it might not be correct, but i dont think he is lying, but that doesnt mean his info is right, maybe the numbers are exaggerated, but if i was a gambling man, id have a tickle on some of JJ's info being spot on.
But innocent until proven guilty.
But i know one thing, after reading about this drama, theres no way id buy anything off TT, i wasnt impressed with his posts, and the reason i think he is keeping out of it, is for the simple fact that he is scared of what JJ knows, hes scared of slipping up, and hes scared of being put on the spot and backed into a corner.
If he had nothing to hide and was innocent he would be in there tooth and nail fighting for his rep and challenging JJ, he would have nothing to fear, but i could be miles off with that thought, ive only been wrong 1000 times before :I am stupid: 
Just my 2c, im not saying he is guilty, nobody knows that, but i smell a rat.


Last edited by AussieFortuna on Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 6:13 am

Interesting post, Wolf.

"and the reason i think he is keeping out of it, is for the simple fact that he is scared of what JJ knows, hes scared of slipping up, and hes scared of being put on the spot and backed into a corner.
If he had nothing to hide and was innocent he would be in there tooth and nail fighting for his rep and challenging JJ, he would have nothing to fear."

And this very same thought crossed my mind, AF.
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aussiejames
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 6:22 am

@Josh wrote:
The way I see it. If the 25,000 figure is true, and all the components are there to do it. It is only logical what happens next Smile
I assumed it was 25 000 items: many MOCs as well.
Toni has been a source of not just GM45 backs. (many without the English text) Palitoy, Tri etc...


edit: Mr Palitoy has addressed this.
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 7:00 am

ok you had to get a solicitor involved back then , now days it is easy you can go on line , back then everything was much harder as you could not just go on line it was not set up yet to do that. i think we keep going off on a wild goose chase here and i think Toni is loving it. he said he did know Arthur but gave over he did not know him well. then we find out that he set up a Ltd business together and were doth equal directors i am sorry you do not do this with someone you do not know as you are linking your self with someone else that has rights over your joint company and if you run up bills or steal or do not pay your taxes you are both responsible for the other actions even thought it is a limited company it will still come back on both directors and this can be very costly. you cannot just brush this off, its a big thing back then and setting up a LTD company together cost money and shows they know each other very well and that its not the passing relationship Toni implied in his first post wear he distance himself from Arthur so why do that ? and feel he distanced himself from Arthur as i have that list and he admits to there being a list and the list is the smoking gun and the prof so this will come out its inevitable now. i need no proof as i was there i know what Toni said and i know what happened back there . It is all over now this will all come out in the end as there are many people i know out there looking into all the things that have come out and more things are adding up. i am talking to more people from back there , i have talked to some dealers that also remember selling mint loose figures to Toni and Toni wanting lots of the same figures Toni it will be better for you if you help close this for everyone and just came clean on all this , instead if it is dragged out even more when we do get to the bottom of everything and prove everything 100% people are going to be very unforgiving with you and that will be a even bigger issues for you. i think at this time most people just wants to know what they have in there collections one way or another Toni ok Toni your not wanting to come clean as maybe you do not have the money to pay everyone back ? or fear legal action ? i can understand that , but i am going to say something some of you are not going to like this but if it states to give closure than i think its a way forward ? Toni i am going to try to help you and all the collectors now and i mean this sincerely . to stand up a little for Toni when Toni was selling these fugues at the shows most other traders knew they were figures that were carded after Pilitoy had closed, they were real components assembled much latter all the traders knew this, most fans collectors herd the stories from the dealers and it was understood that was what they were , it was not a bid deal then , there was no action figure grading back then people just looked at the figure and thought that looked nice and bought them, no one really cared back then if it was put on at the factory or not they were well put together and looked very nice, you have to know it was not that long before this time that people still just opened then up to get a mint figure or to get the gun ?, carded figures were just starting to get interest around this time , these figures Toni had never run out he had then in stock all the time and most people back then knew the facts behind them. now Toni has painted himself into a corner where he has not reminded anyone of the figures past and the fact that they were put together after the factory closed and now he cannot come clean as the new generation of collects are obsessed with grading and things being 100% and that is now a issue for him to say the truth and let out the true history of these figures. i do not think Toni back then did go out to deliberately defraud anyone , i think it helped his sales not to remind people of the true story of how these figures came about, but it was no more than that, now he is in a imposable poison of, if to come clean or how to come clean. you promoted these products as MOC mint on card implying that the figures are mint on a card . on one can argue that 95% of these figures are mint figures no one one is saying these figures are fake or that the bubbles and cards are fake ether so there is nothing there ether. you just did not tell them that they were put together after Palitory factory had closed by your self or Arthur or both of you ? that dose not really matter. but if you came clean to that we could all move forward instead bit by bit it coming out as it will all come out in the end Toni you are seeing that each day. Toni why not come on here and just end this. i never had a issue with you Toni and i am for real on that. i understand your first post was down to desperate people act desperately but it has to all come out one way or anther. i know you need to give someone a way out when they are in a corner so i hope that this dose that for you you are now between a rock and a hard place and its not going to get better just dining everything when its all here we are discovering facts that go's with my version of events, this is over mate jason wrote:


This is going to be biblical Razz
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AussieFortuna
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 The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 11:43 am

IMO this is the reality of the drama.

JJ cant prove anything, lists will prove little, only 3rd party evidence can add to the weight of evidence from him.

TT cant prove anything either, no way will he admit to anything, and he might be 100% innocent.

BUT the proof can come from COO experts, bubble and card experts,and 3rd parties, it might take a while, but the evidence will build or run its course.

Everybody tends to lean on one side of the fence with opinion, thats only natural, they are terrible accusations to have put on you if you are in fact innocent, its better a guilty man get off than an innocent man get convicted of what he hasnt done.

So with no proof, or weight of substance, TT must be presumed innocent, we all have opinions but they are like arseholes, everybody has one.

But none the less, its very interesting reading and depending on which way it goes could have big reprocussions in the hobby.

Wheres Angela Lansbury when you need her Rolling Eyes Laughing 
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orangpendek
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 1:27 pm

How do you guys feel the claims in that thread can be proven either way ?
The carded figures have already been inspected by AFA and seasoned collectors over the years and so far nothing has seemed odd about them otherwise they would not have been graded and traded like they have been for years.
How would Ace be able to prove Toni sealed the figures and how can Toni prove he did not  unsure
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 6:10 pm

This is the thing. If they have been sealed properly with the correct machine, you wouldn't be able to tell. So I am not sure how AFA are meant to ha ha.
Like I have said. At the time, it would of been the logical thing to do with loose card backs and bubbles in those sort of quantities. You would not be buying them for any other reason. Why would you get the bubbles otherwise?
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Josh
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2013 6:33 pm

@Lee Gray wrote:

Would be great if the prices dropped on them now though as could do with a cheap minty fett

Post of the entire shit storm. You gotta love him lol! lol! 
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 2:08 am

@Josh wrote:
@Lee Gray wrote:

Would be great if the prices dropped on them now though as could do with a cheap minty fett

Post of the entire shit storm. You gotta love him lol! lol! 

....and I guess loose cardbacks with german pricestickers will increase very much  lol! lol! lol! 
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 2:13 am

I've just found 25000 German price stickers. Are they worth anything or should I just throw them out?
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 3:20 am

Someone better give Arthur a call and put an order in.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 8:34 am

@DarthBerizing wrote:
If this turns out to be true, I'll also wager the market doesn't crash. They'll just get the proper wording, like "post Palitoy original" or something , and it'll be fine. It's like the Green Harvest protos that kept value by being part of the legendary scam that rocked the hobby.

I don't think that either Blue Harvest or Green Harvest prototypes retained anywhere near their value once they were discovered as being fakes but the Blue Harvest prototypes still sell for reasonable money (£100's) considering they are fakes because they came from the actual molds used for the real hardcopies just a few years later. The Green harvest prototypes that MCWilliams created far more recently wouldn't get anywhere near that kind of value.

A fake is a fake so if these Palitoys and German MOCs turn out to be put together by Toni himself at a later date you can expect a significant drop in value despite all the parts being original. In my opinion it would make them close to the value of a very good reseal.
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Dr Dengar
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 11:12 am

@olisuds wrote:

A fake is a fake so if these Palitoys and German MOCs turn out to be put together by Toni himself at a later date you can expect a significant drop in value despite all the parts being original. In my opinion it would make them close to the value of a very good reseal.

Agree. IF Toni fabricated his own MOCs, post-Palitoy combinations of cardback, blister, and figures, which were never released in the vintage era, would set me off the most. These can be considered custom cards at the best, at least for me.  

Post-Palitoy combinations with an existing vintage counterpart, are then reseals IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 11:44 am

no matter how ,it will go
real or not "fake" reseal or custom ??you guys have,both some good points,,


Last edited by Starwizz on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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olisuds
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 3:31 pm

Well it's looking like they might have been carded a lot more recently. Almost made to order.

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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 6:06 pm

lol! Go to bed and another 5 pages appear on SWFUK Razz
Wow! Well what can you say. Super sleuth Joe has come up with some pretty damning evidence me thinks. I honestly appreciate the fact guys like him are actually trying to work things out instead of dismissing immediately like others so often do. Seriously. There should NEVER be any harm in asking questions when you have concerns.


Last edited by Josh on Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 6:10 pm

One thing I don't get is comparing bubbles seals? What if they were sealed with the right machinery. Old factory machinery. How are you going to tell if the seals are different? If what has been going on is true they have already fooled AFA (If you could even call it fooled). Not sure how UKG are going to deliver a smoking gun on it  Razz 
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 6:12 pm

"If" U graded figures are being recarded that should be the updated explaination in the dictonary for irony and stupidity. wrote:


LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! lol! 
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 6:20 pm

People have to use their common sense here. What would you have done with that many card backs and bubbles back in the day? Remember, the card backs and bubbles at this point in time them selves are practically worthless. It is only logical what happened if it is true about such a deal taking place. No dealer in their right mind would pick up that many LOOSE pieces that had such a LOW return rate? People talk about it taking years to make your money back turning them into MOC. How long do you think it would of taken if you were just selling the card backs and bubbles back then? An eternity ha ha. I am kidding. Of course if they were held onto till now they may very well have brought a good return in the end. But NEVER were you going to make one originally on such items. It's only because time has moved on and the values and what is considered collectable has changed that could be considered the reason to do it. But again..a dealer hang onto £10,000 worth of stock for that long? I guess it could happen. Just doesn't make sense if you are about turnover though.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11, 2013 7:30 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 12, 2013 3:14 am

Robbie seems to get a few from Toni. I wonder what he thinks about this all. I wonder if he had heard rumours in the past also.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VINTAGE-STAR-WARS-ESB-GENERAL-MILLS-GERMAN-BOSSK-AFA-90-MOC-TWIN-STEM-BUBBLE-/301041210044?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item46177452bc&_uhb=1

Some one mention something about Yoda in the thread on SWFUK coming with Orange or Brown snakes on the Gm 45 back cards? If you look at that auction it is is mentioned in the description that Robbie has both available on that card back.
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 12, 2013 3:15 am

Anyone get the feeling he's bailing out of 45 backs all of a sudden Razz lol! 
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PostSubject: Re: The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion.    The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" discussion. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 12, 2013 8:18 am

@Josh wrote:
Anyone get the feeling he's bailing out of 45 backs all of a sudden Razz lol! 

 Laughing  Laughing 

I think we'll be seeing a lot more of this.
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