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 The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!

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wbobafett
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PostSubject: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 12:38 pm

Hey guys,

I have just noticed that some of the weapon pictures made by myself were used for that awesome poster:
http://www.sithvault99.webspace.virginmedia.com/guides/WeaponsGuide.jpg

First of all: Do not get me wrong...I would have provided them myself for that use. As I have offered other pictures of variants...though. But it brings us all back to the rights of pictures and the scandals on RS i.e. I use this example of a general view of point. Maybe I am outdated, or sometimes strange, but I really want to hear your opinions on this.

I "gave" pictures to the Gunnery over years. Sometimes weapon pictures and sometimes Coo charts. All of those were watermarked. I'm not a lawyer nor do I exactly know what legal issues this is or what legal rights are hurt or not, nor do I want to make a case out of it....I just want to hear opinions on this.

So to the case:
A watermarked picture was given to TIG. TIG publishes this pic. The pic can be seen, copied and duplicated everywhere (because it is the internet). Now someone asks about using those pictures. He is cutting out the object to use it for "good". So the watermark is cut away. Permission is given by the staff of TIG. The guy who actually made the picture was never asked.

What do you think? Would you be pissed? Would it be fine??

The watermark clearly says IMO the creator want it to be watermarked for future use. If the TIG staff allows someone to use it for their own purpose they IMO need to say that the picture must be left as it is. If the watermark is cut away for a different use they should at least ask the "guy" who made the pic?!?!? Am I that outdated?

It is a general question of ethical behaviour regarding pictures. I am, at least sometimes, proud of my pictures. But here on TIG I feel that I never got or will get the recognition for those. I asked to remove my COO charts (the old ones v1.0) a long time ago wich was denied by the staff. Now permission is given to cut away watermarks without even asking me to use the pictures for further purpose.

In other words: Is it too much to simply just ask these days??

Discuss.......

PS: This is not about mogwai99. He did a great job in asking all people he thought would be in charge. He did a great job with the poster as well and as said: I would have provided them myself....though Cool


Last edited by wbobafett on Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Richard_H
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 1:09 pm

IMO I think that anything which goes on the Internet becomes fair game. Yes it would be nice to receive credit/be acknowledged for being the original creator of the image but you must be prepared to accept that this will not always be the case.

I don't understand how a photograph of something which you did not create can be considered protected legally or morally.

It would not surprise me to see some point in the future where the copyright laws are drastically changed. The Internet is an out of control beast for which many dated laws no longer apply.

However, personal creations I would consider as different. If for example, TIG created a brand new logo which was protected in law then that should be protected online too.

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Dr Dengar
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 1:16 pm

I am the one to blame.

Tony asked for permission to use pictures of figures (Lili Ledy thread) and weapons. He got permission as it was for the good cause and there were no commercial interests.

Actually I didn't even realize - till I read this thread - that some weapon pictures were actually provided by you years ago.
So yes, it would have been better to ask you for permission in hindsight. It just didn't cross my mind. So here are my public apologies.

Also to Dennis, Steve, and all other contributors to the TIG weapon guide.

Wolff, you got your portion of daily recognition now. The bad guys from TIG can move on with their hard work.
And yes that was not very diplomatically put, which is sometimes relieving.
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ArtooDetour
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 1:30 pm

Well, they're your pics so you have every right to feel hurt. I personally wouldn't be uspet about my pics being used in the context of what Mogwai has done - which is exceptional (to cut out a watermark) and for the benfit of all. Plus I guess Mogwai just assumed there would be no issue with TIG pics if permission was given to use them.

I watermark all my pics too, and only the other day found one on another site. They hadn't asked me permission but did link to my own site... however they had removed my watermark (there are programmes that can do this btw). I was a bit miffed at first but they did link me so no real harm done. All the same it was weird to see my pic without it's watermark.

I wasn't an admin of IG or a TIG mod when you originally gave your coo pics to us so can't comment on decisions about keeping those pics. But I will comment on how you say, quote:

"I won't complain but I have given over 260 pictures to the Gunnery and most of them are still there. This archive would be nothing without my pictures so where is my TIG benefactor???"

To say this, imo, is a bit of a kick in the teeth to all the other contributors, including myself, who have spent hours taking photos and uploading many, many pics, articles and content to IG. Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong? I certainly agree that the archive would be very lacking without your contribution, but to say it would be "nothing" is bad form.



@wbobafett wrote:
Hey guys,

I have just noticed that some of the weapon pictures made by myself were used for that awesome poster:
http://www.sithvault99.webspace.virginmedia.com/guides/WeaponsGuide.jpg

First of all: Do not get me wrong...I would have provided them myself for that use. As I have offered other pictures of variants...though. But it brings us all back to the rights of pictures and the scandals on RS i.e. I use this example of a general view of point. Maybe I am outdated, or sometimes strange, but I really want to hear your opinions on this.

I "gave" pictures to the Gunnery over years. Sometimes weapon pictures and sometimes Coo charts. All of those were watermarked. I'm not a lawyer nor do I exactly know what legal issues this is or what legal rights are hurt or not, nor do I want to make a case out of it....I just want to hear opinions on this.

So to the case:
A watermarked picture was given to TIG. TIG publishes this pic. The pic can be seen, copied and duplicated everywhere (because it is the internet). Now someone asks about using those pictures. He is cutting out the object to use it for "good". So the watermark is cut away. Permission is given by the staff of TIG. The guy who actually made the picture was never asked.

What do you think? Would you be pissed? Would it be fine??

The watermark clearly says IMO the creator want it to be watermarked for future use. If the TIG staff allows someone to use it for their own purpose they IMO need to say that the picture must be left as it is. If the watermark is cut away for a different use they should at least ask the "guy" who made the pic?!?!? Am I that outdated?

It is a general question of ethical behaviour regarding pictures. I am, at least sometimes, proud of my pictures. But here on TIG I feel that I never got or will get the recognition for those. I asked to remove my COO charts (the old ones v1.0) a long time ago wich was denied by the staff. Now permission is given to cut away watermarks without even asking me to use the pictures for further purpose. I won't complain but I have given over 260 pictures to the Gunnery and most of them are still there. This archive would be nothing without my pictures so where is my TIG benefactor???

In other words: Is it too much to simply just ask these days??

Discuss.......

PS: This is not about mogwai99. He did a great job in asking all people he thought would be in charge. He did a great job with the poster as well and as said: I would have provided them myself....though Cool

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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 1:36 pm

@Dr Dengar wrote:

I am the one to blame.

Tony asked for permission to use pictures of figures (Lili Ledy thread) and weapons. He got permission as it was for the good cause and there was no commercial interest.

Actually I didn't even realize - till I read this thread - that some weapon pictures were actually provided by you years ago.
So yes, it would have been better to ask you for permission in hindsight. It just didn't cross my mind. So here are my public apologies.

No problem at all. I just wanted to hear opinions on this Marco. I know excatly we both have differnet kind of view of the internet and the pictures floating around. And as said: I would have provided them as well for this use. It just came back into my mind as a generell discussion theme. And IMO it just seems to be handeld way to sloppy here on TIG as well as on other forums....just my opinion though.

@Dr Dengar wrote:

Wolff, you got your portion of daily recognition now. The bad guys from TIG can move on with their hard work.
And yes that was not very diplomatically put, which is sometimes relieving.

Did you mean it was not diplomatic put from your side or from my side??

I am guessing now from your side, so let me comment this: The "bad guys" from TIG have denied my wish taking my pictures off once. Not sure who was involved anymore but remember a few names. I hated my old COO sheets and got PMs on all forums nearly every day regarding failures, wrong labels and missing COOs which I wasn't able to take anymore. I wanted them to be offline. The wish was denied.....

Sorry if you (the staff) feel now like the bad guys. The result was just that I would never publish or give the COO guide 3.0 to TIG. So maybe I treat you like the bad ones but maybe you should just have fulfilled my wish at that time and everybody would have been fine.

Anyway...it is about the weapon pics and I do not treat anyone here like a bad guy in this case. As you can see on the first reply opinions can be very different on this one! Some will say "this guy again Rolling Eyes " and some will say I am maybe not that far off.
Just curious on this one.


Last edited by wbobafett on Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 1:47 pm

Artoo_Detour wrote:
Well, they're your pics so you have every right to feel hurt. I personally wouldn't be uspet about my pics being used in the context of what Mogwai has done - which is exceptional (to cut out a watermark) and for the benfit of all. Plus I guess Mogwai just assumed there would be no issue with TIG pics if permission was given to use them.

I watermark all my pics too, and only the other day found one on another site. They hadn't asked me permission but did link to my own site... however they had removed my watermark (there are programmes that can do this btw). I was a bit miffed at first but they did link me so no real harm done. All the same it was weird to see my pic without it's watermark.

Thanks. So you can feel me I am guessing??
Artoo_Detour wrote:


I wasn't an admin of IG or a TIG mod when you originally gave your coo pics to us so can't comment on decisions about keeping those pics. But I will comment on how you say, quote:

"I won't complain but I have given over 260 pictures to the Gunnery and most of them are still there. This archive would be nothing without my pictures so where is my TIG benefactor???"

To say this, imo, is a bit of a kick in the teeth to all the other contributors, including myself, who have spent hours taking photos and uploading many, many pics, articles and content to IG. Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong? I certainly agree that the archive would be very lacking without your contribution, but to say it would be "nothing" is bad form.

Okay...maybe it is a language thing. I know you did spend tons of hours in contributing (kudos) so maybe you can feel me as well (that's what I thought). This was created from zero. There was very few entries in the beginning. A rough guestimate would be that in the beginning 90% of the pictures were mine....just saying...it would have been flopped in the beginning without those...... Of course it has grown and it is much bigger nowadays....thanks to you and many others. I btw tried and fought for years that at least a contributors list is done....with ALL members that supported the guide....which was finally done. I am not against the supporters I am with them.....
So if it is a language thing...or if I am understood the wrong way: I deleted the phrase. All I wanted to say was: People spending "a dollar" (which is also undeniable a great gesture) get a bonus regarding their username (TIG benefactor) and people providing tons of pics to the archive get nothing....that is all.....is that more comprehensible??


Last edited by wbobafett on Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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Richard_H
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 2:07 pm

Now I'm confused. Is this a question about use of images on the Internet or an historical grudge which hasn't been resolved?
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wbobafett
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 2:17 pm

cc4rhu wrote:
Now I'm confused.  Is this a question about use of images on the Internet or an historical grudge which hasn't been resolved?

...just ignore the historical grudge. I always have the feeling it is "singing" along with some of the comments, so I defend myself....sorry...don't want to derail this....
I read your post and I of course accept your opinion.

I agree with you that you cannot expect that your pictures stay "yours" unchanged in the www.
But I think if I watermark a picture, it at least moraly belongs to me....no matter whom I provide it. And I think people should not take credit for that without asking. I mean: Use it for whatevere use, but if you claim its yours or if you assimilate it in your work a name should be mentioned or the original creator should be asked.

It is just a simple pic of a weapon I agree, but it is still very time consuming taking all those. It is a hard job to do those, sorting the weapons and finding the differences. What all of us did was creating an archive for thousands of people for free. Some pay money to run this site and some invested a hell of a time to get this archive full with pictures....


Last edited by wbobafett on Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 2:40 pm

I never really gave this much thought til now the internet and laws seem to be hard to define as one can just copy a photo and use it without anyone really knowing. That being said if a person wants to use a photo that was given to a online forum or elsewhere unless the original owner says that the photo must not be used without their permission then the site owner has the permission to use it as it is now the property of the site. Sorry if that sounds confusing so what was done here like it or not is perfectly exceptable. Most places even have that in the rules/signup area stating all contents belong to said site. Don't get me wrong I am not saying if it is right or wrong you wanted an honest opinion, myself I don't think I would mind unless it was used for personal gain but that is a whole different part of the law.
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 3:35 pm

I think one thing is universal here regardless of good or bad form or whatever and I am not speaking to any specific situation(s) at all.  Stormie Smiley

If someone asks permission to use a picture (which is GREAT) and permission to use the picture is granted, no matter whose picture it is, it is in very bad form to ALTER that picture. Period.

By that I mean, if I ask to use a picture and I am granted use of it, it is for that PICTURE as it is published from where they obtained it. If I change it in any way (color, contrast, sharpness, cropping, removing elements, etc) then that is in bad form without explicitly asking first and when that's done, that isn't right.

That's my opinion of the big picture of use of an image you have permission to use. The question of where permission was granted is another story since mistakes can happen.
But the moment you change and alter an image in anyway, you aren't using the image you were allowed to use any more. You simply stole parts of it to fit your needs.

I am guilty of taking images and playing with them for sure, but I would never do that with any image I planned on really showcasing or incorporating into a project.

That's me though.
I have taken thousands upon thousands of images and shared them along the way.  I know the time and effort it takes to create even one single image. It would bother me if someone were to take an image of mine and change it and not give me any credit anywhere if the image explicitly didn't state you can use and/or alter it. I'd be upset to say the least.

Anyway........ moving along........................ Stormie Smiley

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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 13, 2014 6:35 pm

I have contributed photo's for the weapons guide & else where on this forum. In my opinion, once you publish a photo in in the public domain, you have to be prepared for the fact others may 'use' it. If someone was making money from any of my photo's (water marked or not) I'd be pissed, but otherwise I don't have an issue with it. I haven't studied Tony's posters closely enough to see whether any of my images were used, but I'll be flattered if they were.  Cool

On a side note, how many of us have used other peoples images found on the net, whether it be for personal reference or to post on forums etc.? All? I know I have, & rightly or wrongly I didn't seek permission from the 'owner' first.
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PostSubject: Re: The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please!   The thing with the pictures - - - opinions please! I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 15, 2014 10:33 am

Wolff - You've got some nerve dude. You must have a pretty short memory. The reason you will only remain a member is pretty well established. TIG (and I mean Chris B and Me) spent days putting out fires because of you. I had to stay on TIG, SWFUK, SWCC , and RS because you almost single handedly brought TIG to a halt and ruined what took years building. Don't make me cut and paste the topics. I'm not going to rehash this any further, but remember that TIG was the only place that tried to help you. You're standing is a result of your actions.

As for the weapons, I actually do get it and for that I apologize. I do consider them fair game (and honestly it's just a weapon that anyone could take a photo of) but the courtesy of contact would be respectful.

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